Mark has been cut off from cameras and makeup ladies for a few weeks now. So, for that small brave band that miss him on video, we thought we'd post this interview from exactly ten years ago - April 26th 2010 - and see how it stands up a decade on.
The Hoover Institution's Peter Robinson (the man who wrote "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!") is always a very thoroughly prepared interviewer, so this is a more in-depth treatment than usual of the themes Mark raised in his 2006 bestseller America Alone: The End of the World as We Know It. Click below to watch:
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Excellent interview. Love Uncommon Knowledge, specifically the water Peter asks intelligent, incisive questions and actually allows the guest to answer!
My overriding thought while watching this is "pretty much right on schedule."
You don't need makeup Mark. Mark was definitely ahead of the curve with the video. It popped up on my Youtube a couple of weeks ago. So the algorithm does like it. I bet the monetising doesn't.
I don't call him the Great Prophet Mark Steyn PBUH (Pocket squares Be Upon Him) for nothing.
They won't be able to teach the history of WW II. Peter, "The Turks were on the wrong side."
Then, for that matter then you can't teach the history of WW I. The Turks were on the wrong side of that too.
It wasn't just the Turks in WW II. The Grand Mufti of Palestine and his henchmen sided with Hitler. The Palestinians sent back some huge number, like 400,000, Jews who were trying to escape Hitler's Jewish death machine by going to the middle east. Those Jews were sent back by the Palestinians to their ultimate death.
WW II can't be taught in western European schools because of the antisemitism integral to islam. If you read the koran you discover that according to the mulsim faith "Jews and Christians are apes and pigs." Apes and pigs are considered the filthiest of animals in islam. Good luck with that.
I'd love to see an updated reprisal of this interview and if I may rearrange the title of your book, Mark, China Alone: Creators of the World As We Know It Now. Would Mr. Robinson be game?
Unfortunately you had another six years to go in order to see the voters "rise up and tell their government to get the Hell out of our lives" by rejecting the female version of President Obama in favor of a novice who promised to do just that. And, oh by the way, create the greatest economy America has ever seen along the way. At least until the Chinese government decided to cover their mistake and unleash their super flu on the world, taking that economy down in flames in record time.
I thought a bit more about this, and my semi cogent initial response. And here's a better take, I think:
What is most important about this interview is that it shows Mark was thinking and speaking about all these issues of today a good while ago, back when all the "experts" were saying the Muslim world would become more like us, if given the chance. It's hard to find a better, clearer parallel to where we are with China today. They are not becoming more like us, we're becoming more like them. And we still have many of the same leaders, pushing us down the wrong path.
It's a shame more people didn't listen to Mark then. It leaves me with little hope they'll listen now.
Indeed, George. Mark warned that our assumptions about these illiberal ideologies - and any moderating influence we might have - were flawed from the perspective of "us", as much as "them".
"We have been shirking too long, and that's unworthy of a great civilization. To see off the new Dark Ages will be tough and demanding. The alternative will be worse."
Thanks, wonderful Kate.
I will admit that not all that long ago, probably 5 years before Mark was recording this, I was what Mark refers to as a Chamber of Commerce guy on the right. I did think that opening up trade, relationships, etc, with these societies - the Muslim world, China, etc - would result in these societies becoming more like us. But I have since reconsidered, based on the evidence.
And that's a key difference to me. I don't blame someone like Bill Clinton for not just killing Bin Laden; I sympathize with someone who felt we are a nation of laws, and those laws should be followed. But I hold in the greatest contempt someone who has witnessed the events of the last 20 years and still holds that views.
I have a close friend who thinks I'm a bit nuts in my views. But he's really just another Chamber guy who thinks the Leftists in America and the governments in China, Syria, Afghanistan are really just people like us, and once exposed to our liberal ways, they will adopt our lifestyles and politics. I think that is dangerously naive.
I first became aware of Mark because my first year roommate at the time was a National Review reader. When America Alone Came out I was in my senior year and it the Bush presidency was starting to be recognized universally as complete failure. Marks follow up after America came out when I was in law school - and by then it had become apparent that America was going down the same trend lines as Europe albeit 20 years late but catching up quickly (post Christian, chronic unemployment, economic sclerosis, human rights ideology). Then we got the 2015 Hegira and as response Brexit, Trump in 2016. 2020 looks to be the year the establishment strikes back. Notwithstanding the ideological ructions Mark's 2006 trend lines seem to have continued apace and sitting in 2020 one can only remark with surprise that despite most of Marks predictions being eerily prescient the financial system interventionism of the Fed / ECB has been able to keep this ship from sinking and thereby maintaining a patina of normality throughout the period. I do wonder how long we will be able to borrow our way out of the day of reckoning and Mark's final shoe to drop will come... As a reader I am grateful to Mark for his foresight and courage publically discussing the great dangers of our time however I can't help but feel that the ordeals to which he has been subjected because of his unusual ability to see the "preventable evils" on the horizon must make him occasionally wish he had stuck to commentary on music and theatre. I hope that Mark's next ten years finally see good come to him for playing the unpleasant role of political Cassandra.
Well said, Adam. Good to see you back.
Makes me yearn for the early days of Ricochet.
Sheer prescience and brilliance, Mark. Thank you for staying true to your principles. I pray for you daily. Godspeed.
Mark could republish his book with minor updating it would be as relevant today as it was in 2006.
Very much looking forward to the rerun!
This obviously predated "grooming gangs" and ISIS, as well as the massive ramping up of "Islamophobia" (which Hitchens - like Steyn - openly railed against).
A decade on, the free speech crusaders are even thinner on the ground, with "celebrate diversity" stealth jihad part of the multicultural mix. Good summary yesterday by Perry on halal - and other "cultural" exemptions.
When Mohammed Ibrahim went on a stabbing rampage across Melbourne a few weeks ago (2 killed, 1 critically injured) his name and alleged "mental illness" barely made the news.
Not surprisingly, the left's recent outpouring of concern for the Ummah - "Covid-19 pandemic casts long shadow as Ramadan starts" (The Guardian) - is in stark contrast to its antipathy towards Christianity, and its lack of concern for China's treatment of Muslims. (That said, most Muslims don't care about Uyghurs.)
#InterestingTimes
Maybe this was mentioned in the interview but Peter wrote an excellent book about his time as a speechwriter for Reagan. I think it was called "How Ronald Reagan Changed My Life". A true page turner.
Mark,
10 years on. Are you still a Happy Warrior?
What a difference a decade makes. Enemies of freedom have popped up all 'round from jihad to communism. At least we have a leader who will defend Western Civilization. I bet Christopher Hitchens would rally towards freedom, but still be an atheist.
Listening to this interview again reminds me, for some reason, of the scene from Groundhog Day, where Andie McDowell's character explains to Bill Murray's what she wants in a man.
Rita : Well, first of all, he's too humble to know he's perfect.
Phil : That's me.
Rita : He's intelligent, supportive, funny...
Phil : Intelligent, supportive, funny... me, me, me...
Rita : He's romantic and courageous...
Phil : Me also...
Prescient, eloquent, depressing...you, you, you.
PS: I noted that not one of the publications Peter listed as carrying your writing still does--but Rush Limbaugh still has you as guest host (as he will on Monday and Tuesday). That says something about the changing market of media, as well as personal choices. But I think it also says a ton about Rush. And you. I'll be listening.
Mark in for Rush? Woohoo! That's not to be confused with "Wuhu."
Much as I enjoy Mark's sense of humor, I think the calm, sober, understated Mark you see in this video is more effective at making his case.
No straw men, now. Things do change. That is inevitable. That is not an argument for allowing them to change for the worse.
There may be quibbles as to what is better and what is worse about such matters as religious detail and what precisely the worthwhile values of European culture are, but on the whole Europe seems clearly to be changing for the worse, and excessive immigration of backward communities from backward societies seems clearly to be at the root of the problem. It's happening outside Europe, too, and as in Europe simply acknowledging the obvious facts verges on the taboo. The interview (and the book) made important contributions in breaking the ground, and I hope that it enjoyed wide viewership.
There are bigger taboos in the offing. The conversation which everybody has to date skirted around is what to do to reverse matters. That conversation will be the really messy one. As to enacting its conclusions, I'm very pleased not to live in Europe, and I pity that tiny continent. I do care for it.
The thuggish president of Turkey, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, illustrates by himself almost every point Mark Steyn makes in the interview above. He regards the Turkish populations of Germany, the Netherlands and Austria as integral to the population of Turkey itself. He loudly encourages them not to assimilate. Judging by the number of Turkish flags on display at a pro-Erdogan rally in Western Europe, his exhortations seem to be working. He refers to the diaspora as an invasion force and has said:
"Make not three, but five children. Because you are the future of Europe."
Not content with that, he has regularly flooded the Aegean and the Balkans with muslim "refugees." The only small problem for him so far has been the loss, to his political opponents, of Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir. Even that was probably prompted by his military adventurism in Syria and a weak Turkish economy, rather than by his brand of extreme islamic nationalism.
This is what confounds me. These things are said in plain language - easily translatable terms. How can any rational liberal not understand that this is a far FAR grater threat to their liberalism than any domesticated conservative could ever be?
Regarding Benedict XVI: he, of course, abdicated the papacy,. His sin, apparently, was to upset islam, by quoting Manuel Palaeologus, an Eastern Roman emperor whose domain faced an existential threat from the then forces of islam. By forcing the abdication of a Pope (probably the first such instance since Dante's time), the Vatican demonstrated that it, too, is decidedly post-Catholic, as, indeed, the current Pope's deference to the communists in China strongly confirms.
The term "post-Catholic" implies attempts to (further) Protestantise the Church.
Pope Francis is actually post-Christian.
Well, OK, but Benedict was behaving as a Christian, while the Vatican responded in a way specifically to define the currently accepted Catholic doctrine, which would usually be the Pope's own job. For quoting Manuel II's pithy observation about Mohammed, Benedict could be forced into a humiliating apology tour and forced to abdicate. Manuel was Orthodox, naturally, and there was something very sectarian about the way in which the Vatican apparat chose kowtowing to islam over recognising the wisdom of a fellow-Christian.
So, I'll go with "post-Christian," but from a decidedly "post-Catholic" angle.
Oh, I didn't mean to imply I was defending "Eurotrash Vatican bureaucrats" (which is a term I wish I'd coined, but is borrowed from fellow MSC member, Mike Walsh).
Manuel II was right.
Benedict was right.
The Muslim Pope - Francis - is a disgrace.
My only quibble is that you didn't put the boot in re Bergoglio's flagrant Islamophilia, and his explicit endorsement of violent jihad in response to blasphemy: "If [a close friend] says a swear word against my mother, he can expect a punch. It's normal. It's normal", was his rationalisation of the Charlie Hebdo slaughter.
Because killing people who draw and say hurtful things is "normal".
PS. Covid-19 news via Al Jazeera, April 24, 2020: 'Historic' Ramadan call to prayer echoes in Minnesota city
- Adam, the imam, said while the Muslim community is experience loss this Ramadan, they hope the call to prayer broadcast will create a "semblance of normalcy".
- "With the loss of Friday prayers and the regular congregational prayers, we are hoping that this will give a sense of solace and connection to the spiritual needs of community members," he added.
Cardinals in the Americas are eye-catching little birds and one of my less worse photographs shows two of them in a tree on the edge of Buenos Aires. Those twittering Cardinals from the current Pope's homeland could hardly have chosen a worse Supreme Pontiff than the cardinals in Rome did.
The Catholic Church is not particularly powerful, exactly, as Stalin was keen to point out, but it can be very influential. Francis III seems to apply that influence to subverting civilisation. China's great. Gaia is a goddess (forget all that monotheistic nonsense). The cult of islam is of equal value to the teachings of Jesus.
There is a collision between the humanity of Judeo-Christianity and the nihilistic triumph of China or islam - and the most important representative of Christianity is on the wrong side.
I was rather hoping that the really, really faithful would continue attending Friday prayers.
I should have added that Pope Francis is also a communist. I love Argentina. Its relapse into economic insanity, before the China virus even reared its head, was a tragedy. The idea that its most vocal native urges the world into even worse insanity rather sums up Argentina's predicament.
"There is a collision between the humanity of Judeo-Christianity and the nihilistic triumph of China or islam - and the most important representative of Christianity is on the wrong side."
That's an excellent distillation. Meanwhile, Francis is branch stacking like nobody's business...
- "Having named 13 new members of the College of Cardinals, Pope Francis will—as of October 5—have named a majority of the cardinals who will elect the next Roman Pontiff. At least on paper, then, he has had a chance to ensure that the next conclave will elect a prelate who shares his vision for the Church." (Phil Lawler, CatholicCulture.org - Sep 3, 2019)
- "Cardinal Luis Tagle of Manila, an enthusiastic proponent of Francis's agenda on radical climate change policies, open borders and softening hard line attitudes on LGBTI issues, will step up into the role traditionally known as "the red Pope'. [...] Vaticanistas are widely predicting that after his elevation, Cardinal Tagle will become a frontrunner to be Francis's eventual successor. He is known as the "Asian Francis" in the Philippines." (Tess Livingstone, The Australian - Jan 8, 2020)
I have to admit that I've never read "Civitas Dei." I must check what St Augustine had to say about the climate. I'm pretty sure that he was not enthusiastic about open borders.
I watched this just days ago. I'm wondering when we'll all see Mark again on Tucker Carlson, commenting or guest-hosting?
Jay, I've been wondering that for quite some time, too. This is one of the more pernicious effects of the corona virus.
Mrs. W. and I have traveled to Europe once or twice yearly from 2001 onward, sometimes in more recent years taking along each of our grandchildren as they turn 12. The demographic changes we've observed in France, Germany, Austria, and Sweden in particular over a couple of decades have been profound to us two retiree tourists.
Put simply, on almost every trip, whether strolling, say, on Munich's Marienplatz or visiting the marché des Halles in Menton, France, we've seen more and more hijab and niqab wearing women pushing strollers containing two or three children, sometimes in pairs, sometimes escorted by a more casually dressed husband, and more hijab-clad beggars as well. A number of ordinary Europeans in our general age group have made clear to us their feelings of frustration and helplessness to us in conversations that they, not we, have initiated. We sense the younger generation is more inculcated in the "values" of diversity, inclusion and, above all, acceptance.
One such beggar served as a metaphor for us last summer as we shepherded three young granddaughters down the Avenue des Champs-Élysées in Paris. She lay stretched out full length, blocking much of the broad sidewalk with her cup extended from her outstretched arm. Locals and tourists alike strolled around her, pretending not to notice the rather grotesque spectacle.
A block down the Avenue there was yet one more woman in the same pose to step around. Maybe it's a franchise operation.
While everyone had to "notice" not one but two terrorist attacks in that area back in April 2017, that bit of unpleasantness was long over, and it's comparatively expedient to detour as an accommodation on arguably the world's most famous stretch of sidewalk. Nothing to see here, and we explained the vignette to our granddaughters with considerable self-restraint.
Yes, Mark, we can sadly confirm through our own observations that your interview and America Alone stand up very well a decade later. I don't have it in me to congratulate you, and I'm sure you take no joy in your prescience.
There were two points Mark made (and I believe continues to make today, correct me if I'm wrong) that I think are incredibly important, and they are intertwined.
The first point was when Mark says we should note the change Europe is undergoing demographically and note the implications. I think many today would concede the changes have occurred as Mark predicted, and yet they still cling to the arrogant assumption that the Muslim world will eventually become more like us, liberal and enjoying our hedonistic (my word) lifestyle. While the truth remains that we are more likely to become like them, much like our relations with China have resulted not in their adopting our values, but, rather, we adopting theirs.
The second point, and it reinforces the first, is when Mark talks about Hitchens about 25 minutes in, referencing again the arrogance of the western elites in believing Muslims would become more like us. I said this before, and I'm sure I'll say it again: when western leftists side with the Muslim world, which is in reality far more opposed to their practices of the leftist constituents than pretty much anyone in the western right, I think the Left is making a rather arrogant, and foolish, wager. The Left welcomes the Muslims in the battle against the Right, believing that once the Left defeats the Right, they will seduce the Muslim world into their fold. I think this is unbelievably foolish, and if it ever comes to this, the Muslim world will steamroll the Left.
In rereading my points referenced, I think they are essentially the same, but I will need some time to rethink and reformulate them.
As with most of Mark's reposts of older columns or videos, this one is eerily prescient. Well done, Mark.
This is another confounding point. Why the hell would the Left assume Islam would ever become more Western when the Left openly detests the origins of its own culture? It's the greatest examples of collective cognitive dissonance I've ever seen.
I agree, W. They're generally a pretty bewildered bunch. On the other hand, they're solidly united and consistent about hating everything to their right and will get into bed with anyone who hates anything to their right - even if they are included themselves. I prefer the dissonance, because it's difficult to muster any respect for their common cause.