The Deep State Goes Dangling

by Mark Steyn
The Mark Steyn Show
May 14, 2019

https://www.steynonline.com/9382/the-deep-state-goes-dangling

On this second anniversary of The Mark Steyn Club, we're proud to present the first of a special two-part edition of The Mark Steyn Show in which I talk with George Papadopoulos, the first Trump campaign member to plead "guilty" in the Mueller investigation. I've seen plenty of three-minute telly hits with Mr Papadopoulos and always wanted to know more, so I figured, after a year or more of waiting, that I might as well interview him myself.

There were two reasons I was intrigued - first of all, because (as I've written before) young Papadopoulos seemed to me to be obviously the "mark" of multiple high-level well-connected figures from America, Britain, Italy, Australia and elsewhere, but also because several of those persons such as Boris Johnson and Alexander Downer were known to me personally. George Papadopoulos has now set down his account of what happened these last four years of his life in a new book called Deep State Target, which I highly recommend. And just within the last twenty-four hours the Attorney-General has appointed a prosecutor, John Durham, to investigate the origins of the FBI's "Crossfire Hurricane" - the "counter-intelligence" operation that targeted Papadopoulos and other Trump campaign staffers.

That's quite something: the cabinet officer to whom the FBI is politically accountable needs a special investigation to figure out what a subsidiary of his department was up to during the last election campaign. There is much more to come out.

So we begin where George's story begins - with a young Beltway think-tank wonk watching an unlikely presidential candidate descend an elevator in a Fifth Avenue skyscraper. Click below to watch:

Part Two of my interview with George Papadopoulos will air in a few days' time - and, if you want to know more about how "Crossfire Hurricane" got cooked up, George's book is available at Amazon (for the moment). We'll discuss the Papadopoulos case on tomorrow's Clubland Q&A live around the planet at 4pm Wednesday North American Eastern Time/8pm Greenwich Mean Time.

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54 Reader Comments

Michael Sirks • May 17, 2019 at 10:13

Great interview. I 'm looking forward to the second part.
This story could be made into a great movie.

An ordinary American is unwittingly entangled in an international intrigue. It has beautiful women, bumbling spies, Kafkaesque plot and a happy ending.

North by Northwest eat your heart out.

Mark replies:

Thank you, Michael. I'm not sure I'd call it entirely a "happy ending" - as we'll hear next week.

Rob Mort • May 17, 2019 at 07:24

Mark and members, for a bit of fun google, 'London centre for international law practice'.

Rob Mort • May 17, 2019 at 06:54

I'll add, btw, as an Australian cattle producer and tax payer, Disgraceful that I'm busting my arse breaking my bones (literally) to produce income and tax receipts for my representative, a servant of the public, to behave like this. For what purpose really?

Rob Mort • May 17, 2019 at 06:50

Three letters one word. WOW!

Brawndo • May 16, 2019 at 17:55

Spellbinding interview. I just bought the book and I hope it reads as well as George is telling the story.

Ian Wilson

Brawndo • May 16, 2019 at 22:08

Me too, just bought the Kindle version on Mark's (and commenters') recommendation. It's a riveting tale, all the easier to follow after watching this thorough part 1 of the interview. Great work, Mark.

siberianmo • May 16, 2019 at 16:02

Mark,

Another near-hour spent in enlightenment with regard to the intricate web woven by an international cabal enlisted by Hillary and her ilk designed to derail Donald Trump's campaign.

Interviews such as this one with George Papadopoulos go a long way toward developing some meaningful insight into once credibility and so forth. I found Mr. Papadopoulos to be very convincing while at ease with you (to your credit).

Thanx!

Tom in Missouri

siberianmo

siberianmo • May 16, 2019 at 16:28

Oh for an editing feature!

I typed "ones" only to have it changed to "once."
Barf.

Then again, youse guys get the point.

Laura Rosen Cohen • May 16, 2019 at 14:36

The whole interview is excellent.

I wonder if the original policy mantra that Mr. Papadopoulos first noticed, to wit "trade, immigration, security", is precisely the reason why he was singled out for "special" attention, if you can call it that. He publicly identified these Trump policy priorities very early on, and therefore was someone who had insight and potential influence regarding just how the world would be changed by a Trump presidency (i.e away from the status quo of leftist, globalist chaos). Talk about the magnitude of implications, to borrow a Club phrase...

Simus1canada • May 15, 2019 at 23:00

I see President Trump has pardoned Lord (Conrad) Black for the travesty of justice conviction he suffered at the hands of many of the same now Washington based swamp creatures involved in GP's tribulations. The mills of the gods grind slowly but they grind exceedingly fine. Let us pray they never stop for any reason.

Walt Trimmer • May 15, 2019 at 19:57

I think there a few things that should be kept in mind as you watch the interview. First, Donald Trump, if memory serves, led the race for nomination from the day he rode down the escalator at Trump Tower. He only had about 12% support but with all the candidates in the race his was highest share. Second, on election day 2016 no one thought that he would beat Hillary. I bet that was true for The Donald as well.

The U.S. has 17 intelligence agencies (probably an oxymoron) that probably have a combined budget of over $100 billion per year but a lot of it is under the Black Budget. There is plenty of money to keep training "colleges", think tanks and off-the-books agents funded. Bringing in Russian honey pots and $250 dollar meals are only expenses to be reimbursed. This doesn't even account for all the resources that the other countries can bring to bear.

The intelligence agencies are headed by several layers of appointees, think Clapper and Brennan, of which many are not intelligence professionals but take it upon themselves to look over all the reports and only share what they think a President should be aware of. When John Brennan calls Trump a traitor remember the so called master spy chief of the CIA was a long time Democrat Party hack who voted for the communist candidate for President in 1976 and converted to Islam.

Trump was an unknown quantity with a small staff and very few GOP approved campaign "consultants" so the Deep State were uncertain if their rice bowls were going to be kicked over. This would explain their desperation to go after George Papadopoulos since he tried to get in on the ground floor through contact with Corey Lewandowski and made himself a prime target of opportunity. All these bad deeds were done as an insurance policy in the unlikely event Trump would be elected. As I said before, Trump was behind in the mainstream polls on election day and his victory was an unwelcome surprise and worse, the players had left a paper trail.

Finally, never refer to the U.S. system of Justice, it is the court system. You will not find any justice there. The courts are only about enforcing the power of the state. This is true from the Federal courts all the way down to municipal traffic courts.

Kate Smyth

Walt Trimmer • May 15, 2019 at 22:03

On cue (re your final paragraph): Conrad Black, reflecting on his presidential pardon...

"The American criminal justice system is frequently and largely evil; I was convicted for attempted obstruction of injustice. It was never anything but a smear job. For my friends, no explanation was ever necessary; for my enemies, none would ever have sufficed... On to better things and brighter days."

Rob Mort

Walt Trimmer • May 17, 2019 at 06:59

Your last paragraph is so true. As true here in Australia as our son and our family are being dragged through the criminal justice system by the department of public prosecutions and police on behalf of his very first girlfriend no less.

Richard Harrison • May 15, 2019 at 19:48

Great interview, Mark.

Perhaps on the cruise we could have a screening of the feature-length documentary on US intelligence agencies I saw the other day, "Burn after Reading".

Kate Smyth • May 15, 2019 at 19:17

I missed the live Q&A, but listened to the Deep State interview a second time. This is absolutely riveting stuff, and by far the best interview with George Papadopolous to date. Mark's extensive knowledge of Anglosphere politics and figures helps to shed light on the seeds of the elaborate Trump set-up that was outsourced to a network of corrupt globalists. GP is absolutely credible (and good natured) as several people have remarked, and he must be exceptionally resilient to have prevailed despite being an expendable "nobody". Super-smart too to have pieced together some of the puzzle. (Googled Arvinda Sambei and Martin Polaine as he suggested... the plot thickens!)

Can't wait for Part Two of the story - and for consequences for those involved.

Doug Lauder • May 15, 2019 at 15:52

The FBI/CIA / Swamp seeking deniability outsourced the Trump Russia operation to a cast of characters probably recruited and directed by Christopher Steele . They should have steered the op to Gabriel Allon.
Inside joke ?

Robert Stewart • May 15, 2019 at 14:22

I purchased the Kindle version of Papadopoulus' "Deep State Target", and I recommend it. It is terse and provides a written record that supports and fleshes out your interview.

It is curious, to say the least, that Judge Randolph Moss would allow his presumably busy District Court schedule to be interrupted simply to rubber stamp the prosecution of Papadopoulus by sentencing him to a few weeks in prison. Reflecting on his experience in the court, George had this to say:

"Since meeting with my new lawyers, New York-based criminal defense experts, I regretted pleading guilty. We surrendered rather than calling the SCO's bluff. There was never any pretrial discovery. We never saw—or at least I hadn't seen—the transcript of my interview, so all we had was the prosecution's word regarding what I had said. And we caved." (see location 2600 in the Kindle version)

The only explanation I can see is that Judge Moss presumed that Papadopoulus had competent legal help, and that the defense had access to the prosecution's documents. I would hope that in the future any judge involved in any Federal case has the wits to ask the defendant the degree to which the "confession" has been extorted. Had there been any concerted legal effort to contest the prosecution prior to the guilty plea, or was that simply impossible due to the disparate financial status of the parties involved? Has the defendant been afforded the "privilege" of reading the documents that he is confessing to? Was there any attempt at discovery of exculpatory evidence that has been improperly withheld by the prosecution? These are all questions that must accompany any sentencing, given the recent history (e. g. the prosecution of Senator Ted Stephens) of politically motivated malfeasance by the DoJ.

Solomon would have seen through this charade.

Walt Trimmer

Robert Stewart • May 15, 2019 at 14:59

Solomon couldn't get confirmed in the Senate so we got Amy Berman Jackson instead.

Fran Lavery • May 15, 2019 at 13:59

This helps enormously to see what a credible person George Papadopoulos really is. I was on the edge of my seat from start to finish. Mark shows such expertise with his smooth flow of questioning and well-placed explanations and so was able to beautifully flesh out the background and give clarity to the points Papadopoulos was making throughout, even adding the personal observations about Downer to set the table for that last meeting between Papadopoulos and Downer in the Kensington Wine Rooms.

I still would like to know how Joseph Mifsud got to where he did with a Bachelors of Education degree. This is one of the most vibrant interviews I think I've ever seen. Nothing forced or stilted about it. What a thoroughly enjoyable and enlightening exchange between the two men.

Joseph Dornisch • May 15, 2019 at 13:43

I was under the impression that the entire investigation was because of the fake Steel dossier. Then I heard, NO!! It's all about Papadopoulos having conversations with deep state actors before he was even working for Trump.

That's right, I live in a free country with a government that acts with the consent of the governed...

Paul Cathey • May 15, 2019 at 11:35

Last night PBS aired Frontline, "The Mueller Report," a predictable hit piece, obviously put together lovingly in anticipation of Trump being frog-marched out of the oval office, BEFORE Mueller actually released The Mueller Report. Their brief conclusion clearly had to be hastily cobbled together and consisted of audio snippets of "journalists" quoting enraged Democrats and ending with words to the effect of The Mueller Report, " . . .laying a framework for impeachment." Instead of aborting this excrescence PBS decided to bring it to term and put it on life support.

Todd Lewis • May 15, 2019 at 11:00

This was a fascinating interview. I haven't read a spy novel in years but this was better. It has never made any sense to me that so many people in the intelligence and politically connected communities would have been so highly organized and motivated from such an early date to discredit Donald Trump. What is really at the root of all this? I think Alexander Downer's belief that Hillary Clinton's election was a foregone conclusion, a belief common within the deep state community, is the only glimpse of light into the fantastic subversion that was undertaken. Maybe this would have been launched against any Republican displaying the popularity of Mr. Trump, but Trump clearly had the mojo from day one. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the Clinton web of quid pro quos, extortion, and under-the-table deals must be so vast and elaborate that it seriously affected the interests of all these people. It would appear that in the business of clandestine chicanery the Clinton's had become too big to fail. Donald Trump just happened to be the one person they feared could actually take Hillary Clinton out. The threat Donald Trump posed for these people otherwise seems irrational on it's face. They underestimated Obama in 2008, though he was essentially cut from the same cloth. They weren't going to let that happen again, and Trump certainly was not cut from the same cloth. I wonder what we are going to find if the Augean stables of the Clintons ever get cleaned out. I suspect it will be beyond belief.

Paul Cathey • May 15, 2019 at 10:49

Mark, ever since you wrote "Tinker, Tailor, Clapper, Carter, Downer, Halper, Spy," I've been waiting for you to apply your art to this disgraceful, wicked episode in an extended monograph on the order of "A Disgrace to the Profession." You could call it, "A Disgrace to the Succession." As far as George Papadopolous is concerned, the only crime he appears to be guilty of is wearing sneakers and ankle socks with a suit and tie.

Mark replies:

That's very Californian, Paul. People hoot and jeer at me as an obvious rube for wearing dress socks.

Paul Cathey

Paul Cathey • May 15, 2019 at 10:56

A pox on their houses, Mark.

Paul Cathey

Paul Cathey • May 15, 2019 at 11:36

Better still, a sox on their houses.

Ray Winchester • May 15, 2019 at 10:31

There will be quite a lot of squeaky bottoms in the CIA, FBI and M15. Unlike the Mueller dossier, the money spent on this investigation will be well worth it. This is treason.

Josh Passell • May 15, 2019 at 09:38

Just as Watergate began with a "third-rate burglary", so "Spygate" could have begun on almost legitimate grounds. If the overtures to Papadopoulos started in early 2016, then Trump came under suspicion from the moment he descended the escalator and started spouting off about "Mexican rapists" (which is when he got my attention). The intelligence establishment had no reason then to think he would win a single primary, much less the general election. But he was, to paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, an "unknown known": everyone knew of Donald Trump--his lifestyle, his riches to rags to riches career, his flamboyance and self-importance--but how much did they know about the man who did business in some of the slimiest boroughs in the world--New York and New Jersey foremost? That would have been fair game for political rivals and the media--but the FBI, CIA, MI6? What would have piqued their interest so early in an election campaign that was Hillary Clinton's to lose (and did she ever)? Just as sending "The Plumbers" to break into the DNC HQ in 1972 was a trivial, yet staggeringly stupid, act that ultimately led to one of the gravest Constitutional crises in the history of the Republic, so initiating a foreign intelligence operation on American citizens--Papadopoulos and Page, to name but two--using spurious evidence--the Steele dossier, Mifsud's involvement, Russian dollybirds--to first spy on and later hamstring a duly-elected President of the United States...well, that does take some chutzpah. And to borrow a question from the former scandal and apply it to the latter: What did the President know, and when did he know it?

Calvert Whitehurst

Josh Passell • May 15, 2019 at 12:28

You raise an interesting point, Josh. Those of us with long memories can recall how in 1984 Geraldine Ferraro's husband's real estate dealings - I think he had strip clubs or porno stores among his tenants, and there were issues with some tax returns that also bore her signature - became at least an embarrassment to the Mondale campaign. One would think that Mr. Trump's real estate development deals in NY, NJ, NV and elsewhere, and his lengthy history of lawsuits, would have furnished tidbits damaging to his campaign. There was certainly plenty of leftie chatter about all that on social media at the time. Yet senior Obama appointees to DOJ and senior career officials at the FBI opted to investigate Russian collusion and went to considerable lengths - and enlisted the help of a slew of foreign contacts - to entrap Papadopoulos and others in their web. I can't help thinking they knew HRC's vulnerability in that area and launched the Trump-Russian collusion narrative as a distraction.

Wayne Lanham • May 15, 2019 at 09:12

In less civilized times, or at least in times where we all weren't so fat and happy in the lap of luxury, all of this might result in open warfare, possibly including civil war in this very country. People don't want to deal with it because of the magnitude of the implications, but this is all nothing less than a sophisticated attempt at overthrowing the duly elected government of the United States. Many of these people would be hanged as recently as the 1950s,

Mark replies:

"The magnitude of the implications" is a good way of putting it, Wayne. Be sure to bring that up on today's Clubland Q&A - 4pm North American Eastern/8pm GMT.

Kate Smyth • May 15, 2019 at 08:13

Wow! The web of US "allies" who conspired to undermine Trump is truly shocking.

Alexander Downer recently said he regards himself as "a warrior for the Western alliance", which is how these influencial foreign Never Trumpers must've rationalised their actions: An alliance to prevent Trump becoming nominee/ president and to ensure Hillary's success, because they knew better than deplorable US citizens.

Downer is up to his neck in it with his Clinton Foundation and Hakluyt dealings. AD on Twitter in April: "We just thought he (Papadopoulos) might be interesting as he was a minor player with the Trump campaign." So this sort of "meeting" is just part of the High Commissioner job description?! With information passed on to Julie B at DFAT. Etc. It will be interesting to see the full extent of Anglo-Australian political and intelligence interference.

Fascinating interview, and can't wait for Part Two.

Holly

Kate Smyth • May 15, 2019 at 08:52

I'm also looking forward to part two, but I really can't wait for Mark's interview with Alexander Downer!

Kate Smyth

Holly • May 15, 2019 at 09:16

Mark has mentioned that Alexander is well known for "alcohol fuelled" socialising, so a night out on the turps (with Mark recording him) could work!

Walt Trimmer

Kate Smyth • May 15, 2019 at 14:13

I believe the "5 Eyes" loved Obama because he didn't place any demands on them. Obama/Hillary's foreign policy was talk tough and give them whatever they want. The Iran Deal is the showcase for this but you have to include the kid gloves for China, Libya fiasco and others as well (but there were some hard to understand exceptions.)

The U.S. is now blamed for Libya but it started as an Anglo-French operation to promote civil war to get better oil concessions by exploiting tribal differences between east and west coastal Libya. Obama famously "led from behind." U.S. involvement became necessary when the RAF and the French ran out of bombs and had to borrow some from American stockpiles. Chaos ensued and when the Ambassador was killed in Benghazi Obama's whereabouts are unknown.

Trump demands hard actions be taken. This makes him very unpopular with the 4 of the 5 Eyes who are led by a motley assortment of losers.

Journolist

Walt Trimmer • May 15, 2019 at 16:30

I suspect Libya was just a Co-ordinated Spontaneous section of the "Arab Spring" currently whirling around Syria. It's the Men in da 'Hood. again.

Kate Smyth

Kate Smyth • May 16, 2019 at 07:25

Yikes - *influential*. (Started as "Never-Trump influencers". But no real excuse for that misspelling, except that it was after 10pm.)

Cottesloe dreaming • May 15, 2019 at 08:05

Sounds like your mate Alexander Downer has gone rogue.What an extraordinary pantomime. Why indeed?
He was on ABC radio today on unrelated matters but mentioned El Donaldo , that he didn't like the way Trump conducted himself and there should be no place in politics for his like. Hmm, so a sympathetic ear perhaps.
Plus, Downer and the Fishnet Stockings.Who knows where that ended?
Great work again,Mark.

Kate Smyth

Cottesloe dreaming • May 15, 2019 at 08:49

He's gone rogue on Twitter, too.

@AlexanderDowner 6/5/19: #paulkeating attack on our intelligence chiefs reminds us all that he is Australia's
@realDonaldTrump

Nearly a thousand replies - worth a look - including: "Your insult to our intelligence reminds us that you are Australia's Alexander Downer."

Walt Trimmer

Cottesloe dreaming • May 15, 2019 at 13:46

You left me dangling with the Fishnet Stockings!

Josh Passell • May 15, 2019 at 06:32

Will listen soonest, but I have to share a series of tweets yesterday (Tuesday) from Boston radio colossus, Howie Carr (@HowieCarrShow), on the matter of Trump's Deep-State fishing:

"Whitey Bulger back in the news now that U.S. Atty John Durham has been appointed to investigate another case of deep law enforcement corruption. Lots of confusion on the right, so let me clarify
[...]
"Durham was brought in to clean up two generations of corruption in the FBI Boston office.
[...]
"The crooked feds were trying to protect their prize informant Joe Barboza and the older brother of Whitey's later partner Stevie Flemmi. Bob Mueller's tie
[...]
"to this case is: He was acting U.S. Atty in Boston in the mid-80s when these four guys were in state prison (two on death row) for a crime that *literally* everyone in the FBI (and the city) knew they did not commit.
[...]
"Durham was brought in to clean up the mess, he set up shop in Worcester - not Boston - because he knew how shady everything was in the city.
[...]
"Bottom line: The Boston criminal underworld was a big, big place. Whitey didn't have his finger in all the pies. Keeping the four framed men in jail was about protecting the FBI, not Whitey."

My bottom line: John Durham has cleaned up Bob Mueller's messes before, and will do so again. In Barr and Durham, President Trump may finally have the muscle to clean out an absolutely filthy apparatus at the heart of the state. The closer to the truth, expect the squealing to amplify.

chickensoup

Josh Passell • May 15, 2019 at 07:32

I hope Durham and his family and friends are well-protected. These are some really dirty people.

Journolist • May 15, 2019 at 06:03

Slightly off-topic, but Auberon Waugh used to warn against doing business in the USA because sooner or later you, the alien, would be mugged judicially. Currently HP is a study.

Mark replies:

Yeah, tell me about it.

Segnes Schonken • May 15, 2019 at 02:47

Enjoyable and intriguing interview. Seems to me at this point that an emerging moral of the story is that one does rather better by under-estimating the calibre, integrity and national importance of secret service operations than by over-estimating those things. Greene and le Carré evidently knew something when they respectively wrote "Our man in Havana" and "The tailor of Panama".

Robert Stewart • May 15, 2019 at 01:18

Mark, this is a terrific interview. It looks like Papadopoulus' prosecution and imprisonment are proof of the collapse of the Federal justice system. Are there no judges in this failed system who have a slightest self respect? From Conrad Black's travesty, to the FISA scandal, to this event, they seem to serve no purpose other than to rubber stamp the lies and fabrications of the DoJ. Useful idiots with a lifetime appointment.

Is there some office in the federal bureaucracy where Papadopoulus can get his life back?

Walt Trimmer

Robert Stewart • May 15, 2019 at 13:53

You can't get a 97% conviction rate if Federal Judges side with the accused. Judges don't look at any evidence they just schedule the next hearing, usually far in the future.

G Pop was lucky to get only a couple of weeks of prison time for being innocent. When the Feds put their sights on you if you resist they will bankrupt you and then give you a longer sentence. OK, I am a cynic.

Brett McSweeney • May 14, 2019 at 23:59

Alexander Downer was at a CIS event in Sydney with Tim Montgomerie recently and I thought I detected a slight cringe when the host asked for any questions from the audience. No one was gauche enough to reference his little spy adventure, however.

David Kelley-Wood • May 14, 2019 at 23:44

To justify an investigation, it's good form to have a little evidence to get the ball rolling. But, what if you don't have any? Fabricate it, of course!

James Bond in "From Russia With Love," just before the fight on the train, "That must be a pretty sick collection of minds to dream up a plan like that,"

The people who came up with the plan to entrap George sound like they're cut from the same cloth.

Mike • May 14, 2019 at 23:33

"Crossfire Hurricane"... from Jumpin Jack Flash... Maybe the new investigation of the FBI and Justice Dept needs to reference Sympathy for the Devil, i.e "Just as every cop is a criminal, and all the sinners, Saints".

chickensoup

Mike • May 15, 2019 at 07:23

Wasn't Jumpin Jack Flash one of Trump's intro numbers during the campaign? Was he sending a signal he knew? Or did they take the name from his campaign music?

Perry Pattetic • May 14, 2019 at 23:33

One thing - are you sure it was MI6 and not MI5?
5 does the domestic stuff.
6 does the Cyprus stuff.
May and Hammondand Cameron are up to their necks.

Kate Smyth

Perry Pattetic • May 15, 2019 at 08:42

Wondering the same. Perhaps a range of FVEY agencies...
ASIO?
ASIS?

Looks like Turnbull and Bishop might be up to their necks too. Turnbull mocked Trump in an extended (leaked) performance at the Parliamentary Press Gallery event in mid-2017: "We are winning in the polls... I have this Russian guy."

Also "conservatives", like May and Cameron.

William Tomlinson • May 14, 2019 at 23:06

Outstanding interview Mark! BTW, Does this fellow have protection? I fear he needs it.

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach • May 14, 2019 at 21:26

Outsourced to MI6. MI6 then botched it, deliberately(?), but not thoroughly enough so that the Dems to fell for it hook, line and sinker, for the subsequent investigation to clear and exonerate President Trump and his campaign, and for it to backfire onto the Dems. Brilliant if that's the case.

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach • May 14, 2019 at 21:34

PS: a fascinating video!

Dennis • May 14, 2019 at 21:08

Great idea Mark to interview George. I've already purchased his book.and I'm enjoying reading it. I hope it's selling well for him.