The West in Existential Crisis

Topical Take
March 27, 2019

https://www.steynonline.com/9261/the-west-in-existential-crisis

The ongoing fallout from the mosque massacre in Christchurch - infidel prime ministers in hijabs, the Muslim call to prayer on New Zealand radio, the banning of Jordan Peterson from Kiwi bookstores - prompted several SteynOnline readers and viewers to ask for an encore broadcast of Mark's interview with Douglas Murray for The Mark Steyn Show.

There is no more humane and clear-eyed observer of the existential tragedy unfolding across the west than Mr Murray. In this program, he discusses The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam, a book Mark describes as "profound". Steyn and Murray survey Christendom in unprecedented demographic transformation, and roam far and wide in their analysis from the East End of London to the Mediterranean refugee camps, from far northern Sweden to the tomb of Charles Martel. If you missed it first time round, we think you'll find this show worth your time. Click here to watch:

You can find Douglas Murray's must-read book here, and at bookstores everywhere. Among the benefits of Mark Steyn Club membership is that you can enjoy The Mark Steyn Show in any medium you desire: video, audio or text. So, if you find Steyn and Murray more palatable in non-visual form, please log-in to our Audio & Transctipts department.

Like much of our content at SteynOnline, The Mark Steyn Show is made possible through the support of members of The Mark Steyn Club. We appreciate that membership is not for everyone, but it does help assure that shows like this remain out there for everyone, winging their way around the world and perhaps changing a few minds en route. If you'd like to find out more about the Club, please see here.

Another advantage of membership is access to our comments section. So, if you take issue with anything Douglas or Mark said on the show, then feel free to comment away below - and Steyn looks forward to addressing them when he's out of this week's tedious trial.

© 2020 Mark Steyn Enterprises (US) Inc. All rights reserved.
No part of this website or any of its contents may be reproduced, copied, modified or adapted, without the prior written consent of Mark Steyn Enterprises.

If you're a member of The Mark Steyn Club and you take issue with this article, then have at it in our comments section.

receive the latest by email: subscribe to steynonline's free weekly mailing list

Comment on this item

Submission of reader comments is restricted to Mark Steyn Club members only. If you are not yet a member, please click here to join. If you are already a member, please log in here:

Member Login

33 Reader Comments

Janet Long • Mar 29, 2019 at 15:14

Mr. Murray reflects exactly what is happening here in America as well as Britain and Europe. Parallel after parallel.
One would think that the Liberals would learn from the mistakes already made by the British and Europeans, but concerning our own border problems they take a page from Angela Merkel's playbook of, "Never mind the occasional violent gang member, drug dealer, human trafficer" diversity is the important and moral end (and voters).

Brad Zellmer • Mar 28, 2019 at 23:52

I remember Mark saying about a year ago in an essay after the terrorist attacks in the U.K. for the A.G. concert, the following (paraphrase):
Western civilization very strong militarily,....but culturally very weak.
Militant Islam is very weak militarily...but culturally very strong.
I really think that sums up this whole issue....Culture trumps everything....
Brad Zellmer
Proud Founding Member

Sam Williamson • Mar 28, 2019 at 15:37

Well that was fascinating. Very rare to be able to listen to two intelligent, well-spoken, well-mannered gentlemen talking about an important issue, without someone screaming racism and shutting the whole thing down. I was particularly taken by his metaphor of the West squandering its inheritance while indulging in the trivial. Sounds not unlike Nero fiddling.

I hope that Douglas Murray's optimism about the good in people will eventually carry the day. If not, I'm still prepared to join the Mark Steyn Catacomb Club, where one can enjoy a decent discussion about matters of importance. By the way, where are the catacombs in New Hampshire and what sort of secret knock or handshake will gain one admittance?

Kate Smyth • Mar 27, 2019 at 19:49

The dread of further retaliatory violence by opposing extremists - Douglas brought up the Finsbury Park mosque attack several times - is very prescient. His guarded optimism towards the end of the interview about more people (be they Muslim or non-Muslim) who might "help get us out of this" raises the question: Do most Muslims share the views of imams in the West who promote to their co-religionists the "blessing" of being murdered? (See MEMRI TV video #7088 following Christchurch.)

Why is it that ex-Muslims, reformist Muslims and even nominal Muslims in the West are marginalised by the political-media class, yet Islamists are in positions of prominence and power? Why aren't those like Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Mohammad Tawhidi given a platform to help turn things around?

Tom Gelsinon

Kate Smyth • Mar 27, 2019 at 23:44

Hard to figure, Kate. Compare and contrast Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ilan Omar. Talk amongst yourselves.

Jamie Marsh • Mar 27, 2019 at 19:21

I saw this the first time around which prompted me to buy his book The Strange Death of Europe. Both this interview and his book are excellent. The book of course has much more detail and I learned a lot.

Todd Lewis • Mar 27, 2019 at 18:15

I am glad to have been able to listen to this interview a second time. I believe Mark and Douglas were much clearer than you almost ever hear about the 800 pound gorilla in the room, except that the gorilla here was still a cardboard cutout and not the real thing. The gorilla I'm referring to is the fact that the mental world of the West is essentially framed by Christian thought, but that the categories of thought are not often based on real faith. There is so much to say on this in such a limited space. I have often commented elsewhere that the West is in the thrall of this thing we call "The Enlightenment". I define the Enlightenment as the assumption that we live in a universe that is purely material and has no fully complimentary spiritual component that is integral and absolutely essential to it's fabric. We therefore think science and technology will tell us everything we need to know and solve all problems. We think every problem is only a material problem. This is the essence of what we might call modernism or post-modernism. The Enlightenment mindset has made leftism/socialism/progressivism/etc. possible. The evidence of this is ubiquitous. As just one example, the Left is attempting to change entirely our concepts of sexuality and marriage. They think they are nothing but material social constructs that can be easily changed to suit our preferences. They do not understand that they are, first and foremost, spiritual concepts that cannot be changed without dire consequences. I'm not making this up; Paul explains it quite clearly in Ephesians 5. Furthermore, a mere rationale is not necessarily spiritual. There are countless fine arguments that apart from real faith have no substance to sustain them. I would say this is part of what the "Never-Trumper" disease is. There are an awful lot of people who think Christianity is a mere assent to a set of ideas or an adherence to religious institutional regularities. Those things, however, are dead apart from real faith. Scripture makes abundantly clear that Christianity is a real, organic, living engagement with God every moment of our lives. It really can't be otherwise. Christianity cannot be like Van Gogh's churches that appear bathed in starlight but are totally dark inside. Conversely, many evangelicals reduce the universe to only the spiritual. They cannot seem to understand that the full counsel of Scripture is intended and destined to govern the entirety of the world as we know it. That is, after all, what the Lord's prayer means. However, our primary plight is that mere ideas and principles without faith are lacking in sufficient personal conviction and therefore have "no purchase" on our motives and thinking. The ideas that have made the West are unsustainable given the present mindset. I believe without a real and comprehensive spiritual awakening the West will continue to die this slow and pathetic death.

Fran Lavery

Todd Lewis • Mar 27, 2019 at 20:04

I think Douglas did touch on this theme you mentioned when he said we in the West have developed from our Christian roots, otherwise we wouldn't even have the concept of human rights today. But, so much of what you stated here is resonating with me. I think your last two sentences hit it home, and this sentence, "There are countless fine arguments that apart from real faith have no substance to sustain them." Did you not feel a little sad when Douglas asked, "what is it all about"? And "what are we here for, besides shopping and going on a holiday"? Isn't the creation of life by itself something of a miracle to celebrate and explore? Isn't is a miracle how everything in creation fits together so beautifully and it comes with underlying mathematical equations that support the mechanisms and laws in the various sciences, and how under the worst pressures and disasters life seems to conquer death and destruction. Our faith in a God greater than all of us combined gives us the strength to carry on and the fact that we can recognize adversity and face it with something of a nature that often requires super human fortitude also informs me that there is a force behind us, supporting us in good endeavors and wanting us to survive the odds even when stacked mightily against us.

Ken Cook

Todd Lewis • Mar 27, 2019 at 20:18

Hey, I love your thinking here Todd, I totally agree that the West is failing because it has lost it's Christian faith - that is personal faith not institutional faith.
A couple things to think about ...
The original Enlightenment was all about personal Christian faith that revolutionised the Western world. Now. as you say we have the new Enlightenment that is trying to wipe away our Christian foundations.
There are many conservative commentators (and general public) that stand in solid support of our Christian foundations - laws, society, traditions etc, however they do not profess to be Christian. I believe they are part of the problem. Their arguments are for the structure of Christianity but not the intent of Christianity (no heart). I believe Douglas Murray is one such commentator and after reading his book I see him personally searching for an answer to all that he has witnessed (I hope he finds it). For example in the interview with Mark he makes the comment that he hopes something will come along to solve today's dilemma. So his books covers the positive influences of Christianity across the West and the moral/spiritual challenges of today yet he hopes something will come along. Could that something be Christianity? No, he discounts this in one line in the book saying basically that Evangelicals are not in the real world. The Evangelicals he refers to are people of personal Christian faith who were the founders of the original Enlightenment. These same Evangelicals around the world are dying for their faith in Nigeria, Pakistan, China, Egypt just to name a few countries - they can rightly make an argument for Christianity unlike many others.
I believe you cannot make a valid argument for Christianity without mentioning Christ.
One more thing Muslims are people of faith, many are prepared to live and die for their faith. Many in the West today are happy to live in a society based on Christian principles but will they die for it?

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach

Todd Lewis • Mar 27, 2019 at 21:17

I would argue completely differently. I see The Enlightenment as the opposite of feudalism. As the embodiment of fundamental Judaic Christian principles stemming from The Reformation. The fundamental principle of The Enlightenment being evolution. Evolution producing game changers, small and big. Evolution producing progress. Game changers producing increases in wealth for all.

For evolution to operate there must be 'mutations' - diversity - in the 'organism' - eg. the person, the company, the society, the cultural branch. Our cultural branch is western culture - that's what we have been evolving. And we have been evolving in all respects - business, economy, science, technology, the arts. Free speech and free throught are vital to diversity. So is honesty and questioning and challenging. The western democratic capitalist legal, economic and societal system provide the platform for evolution to occur and hence game changers to be produced.

Localisation is very important. Localisation to the person, the region, the state, the country. This provides a means of identifying and exercising responsibility and of constructively competing. It provides for advancement - for evolving.

Conservatism means conserving and advancing capital of all types. Capital has many forms including personal and societal. Personal capital includes skills and education, strength and quality of moral character. Societal capital includes culture and cultural memory. Values produce capital. Conservatism provides the personal and societal platform on which progress can be made. It provides the strength to explore new territories and to advance the arts - new science, new technology.

What has happened with globalisation is a massive attack on peoples personal and societal capital - an impoverishment of them in all respects.

Kate Smyth

Ken Cook • Mar 27, 2019 at 21:30

A distinction even more telling is that many are prepared to die for *and* kill for their faith, with a guarantee of the highest eternal reward for the latter.

Ken Cook

Kate Smyth • Mar 27, 2019 at 21:57

Yes, and there is the difference between Islam & Christianity. Muslims believe must die to receive a guarantee of eternal life while believing Christians already have that guarantee through Christ and His sacrifice and they are free to live a life showing that guarantee.
One requires life and the other requires death.

Carl Branstetter

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach • Mar 28, 2019 at 00:18

"Conservatism means conserving and advancing capital of all types"

Uh, no. I suggest you Google "Ten Conservative Principles" by Russel Kirk. A decent starting point for someone who truly wants to know what "conservatism means."

Only ideologies can be summarized in a single sentence. Conservatism is, among other things, the negation of ideology.

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach

Carl Branstetter • Mar 28, 2019 at 05:01

I don't see any contradiction there. I certainly agree with those 10 principles. And they agree with "Conservatism means conserving and advancing capital of all types". And they cover other principles of conservatism. And they basically cover the 3 pillars of conservatism.

Capital of all types - "Capital has many forms including personal and societal. Personal capital includes skills and education, strength and quality of moral character. Societal capital includes culture and cultural memory."

#2 custom, convention, and continuity, #3 principle of prescription, #7 property, #10 permanence and change --> conserving.
#5 variety, #10 permanence and change --> advancing (evolving)

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach

Carl Branstetter • Mar 28, 2019 at 05:04

PS: I was not summarising an ideology in a single sentence. I was stating a couple of paired principles of Conservatism.

Kate Smyth

Ken Cook • Mar 28, 2019 at 06:36

#ProudDeathcultphobe

Todd Lewis

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach • Mar 28, 2019 at 19:54

Yes, I would agree that evolution is the cornerstone of Enlightenment thinking. It puts all development and potential in random material interaction. However, I reject the concept completely. It is horrible to imagine that this is all we are. This renders all things absolutely meaningless and without purpose. I do not say that material progress is not possible. What I mean is that we do nothing more than discover and implement what already exists. All that we know or understand that is true came from a Source outside of ourselves. None of it existed in and of itself. Mutations did not create life or cause anything to evolve. They are always detrimental. I don't know if Scripture is of any importance to you, but Romans 1: 19-20 tells us that the universe was created by God to reveal and explain himself to us. The universe abounds with meaning. Our job is to discover the truth, which is immutable. The foundation of all that is true is found in His word. This is where growth and health and progress lie.

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach

Todd Lewis • Mar 28, 2019 at 21:21

I very much believe that there is a creative principle in us and all around us - call it the spirit - call it God - call it whatever - it is there. I don't think life is random. There is a lot of synchronicity. If one is going on purely Darwinian terms we, as a life form, would require far more diversity to be present than there is. And there are a lot of features to life that are only advantageous in their complete forms. So it seems that there is a lot more to the equation.

Progress needs diversity. The Enlightenment harnessed that diversity to produce the game changers which produced our advanced modern life. Feudalism is anti freedom. It is anti the environment required to invent, to create, to produce game changers. These require as much randomness - ie. freedom - as possible - to 'let God act' "God acts in mysterious ways" - let him. Hence meritocracies work, feudal societies don't.

The fundamental principles of Judaeo Christianity, via The Reformation, fed into The Enlightenment and are vital to its success.

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach • Mar 29, 2019 at 04:53

PS: in Christian term redemption is evolution - "nothing's perfect, always getting better".

Fran Lavery • Mar 27, 2019 at 15:48

"I can't wait to live my tolerant and diverse life"! Yep, that's what I started every day dreaming about over my oatmeal, maple nut scones and tea!

Laura Rosen Cohen • Mar 27, 2019 at 12:00

The book is excellent and Douglas Murray is erudite, brave and so intelligent. He spells out the facts in a clear and honest manner and I also appreciate his no-holds barred approach to antisemitism-where it's coming from and what is at risk. I highly recommend both the book and this wonderful interview. I'm a big fan.

Roy A Crocker

Laura Rosen Cohen • Mar 27, 2019 at 16:11

I read his terrific book last year and highly recommend it. It's both amusing and sickening to watch the phony outrage from the left and groups such as CAIR reacting to that horrendous mass murder in New Zealand. To them this is the gift that keeps on giving. It's a wonderful two-fer. Islamophobia gets further reinforcement in the west and legal gun owners are once again on the defensive. Looks like the creepy porn lawyer is going to receive the same support from the left as did Jussie Smollett. Here is the party line developing in the demo-media. Michael Avenatti has performed terrific undercover work in exposing the Nike college scandal!. Forget that this con man was actually attempting to extort millions in hush money. I wonder if Stormy is still pole dancing somewhere to make ends meet after this creep stole most of her payoff from Trump?

Al Man from CA • Mar 27, 2019 at 10:29

As usual, this is another great Mark Steyn interview. If you haven't already, please listen to the interview, buy the book, read the book, and then reflect on what has happened since the interview was done and the book was finished.
Truly alarming.

Kate Smyth • Mar 27, 2019 at 08:58

Look forward to re-watching this.

Douglas Murray in a column in The Weekend Australian: "These are discussions (on immigration) that have to be allowed to go on in Australia and New Zealand as well as across the continent of Europe. ... For aside from being one of the best release valves for concerns that we have, the right to think and argue freely remains among our most precious and hard-fought-for attainments. It is an attainment that no one — especially such a person [as the terrorist] — should ever be permitted to take away from us."

A couple of other post-Christchurch insights (videos on YouTube/ MEMRI):
• Apparently the Jews were behind the attack according to a local Muslim leader, Ahmed Bhamji, who outlined his suspicions at a large public gathering. MEMRI TV- Mossad, Zionist businesses paid, supported Christchurch shooter. #7120
• Also, for those murdered in the mosque attacks, their deaths were "a blessing", "an honour", and "a reward" according to several very, very moderate Australian imams in a recent panel discussion. "We should be happy for them!" MEMRI TV- We should be jealous of the victims! #7088

Kris Dray

Kate Smyth • Mar 27, 2019 at 13:31

The Jews did it. Of course. It wasn't the lunatic who wants to depopulate the earth with a race war so the butterflies and trees will be safe from the bad humans. The Jews. Arm yourselves well, you Zionist fiends.

On a more upbeat note, it is good to see that nice young girl from New York, according to CNN, is biggest star in the Democratic party because she fights! Or something like that. One of the major outlets in the US, the Corrupt News Network may not be the enemy of the people (it is), but to ignore their responsibility for a two-year hoax while pushing forward as a bright light of liberal truth one of the dimmest bulbs to come down the political pike in years...unfathomable.

Admittedly, as a deplorable (not the adorable variety) from flyover country, I struggle daily with homophobia and Islamophobia and all those other phobias folks like me seem to have. It is odd, then, that I find myself standing in admiration (and even a little awe) of Douglas Murray. Being only mildly felinophobic (I know, I know, ailurophobic or allurophic or some such thing), I find myself having similar feelings for Mr. Steyn. It was Mark's interview with Douglas Murray that gave voice to the uneasiness I felt for family members living so close to Muslim centers, especially after the attacks in the UK and Europe. That interview led me to buy their books and eventually join the Mark Steyn Club. It is brilliant, calm, reasoned. It's a pity Douglas and Mark will most likely being sharing a classroom at the Islamophobic Adjustment Center In Ottawa one day. Not worry though. You will have company. Just give a wave to the faintly Sasquatch-looking creature shackled in the back of the classroom. That will most likely be me. God bless. (And when I say God bless, I mean the loving, forgiving One, full of Grace, not that other one that encourages suicide bombers to blow up buses full of school children.)

Laura Rosen Cohen

Kris Dray • Mar 27, 2019 at 14:46

Kris and Kate my naive gentile friends: Of course it was DA JOOOOOOZZzzzzzzzzzz.

I also heard about Ahmed Bhamji's accusation. That clever rascal, he figured it all out! Jooozzzzz!

And as I said previously, all I can say, on behalf of the ZOG is that although we firmly deny any involvement, of course and cannot really comment on operations past, present or future, I'll definitely have to investigate where the leakers are, because they need to learn to keep their big, fat Jew yap-traps shut when we do such complicated, secret operations. There's a rat fink in the organization, and we're gonna have to drain the ZOG Swamp.

But for real and not for joking:

****NUT CASE ALERT****

***LIVING IN ANTISEMITES HEADS RENT FREE ALERT****

In all seriousness, it took a lot longer than I thought for certain parties to blame Da Jooooooooz.

It's so pathetic. Alas, much of this insanity is mainstream.

Kris Dray

Laura Rosen Cohen • Mar 27, 2019 at 16:10

Wow! Thanks, Laura! No one has ever called me gentile before...at least not to my face. God bless, and keep those Zionist operations on the down low!

Roy A Crocker

Kris Dray • Mar 27, 2019 at 16:36

Indeed Kris - Recently in Italy a Senegalese Muslim bus driver, one Ousseynou Sy, attempted to burn alive a busload of kids. One of the kids managed to sneak out a phone call to alert authorities and he has become the entire story now in the west. Sy did in fact set the bus afire but luckily the kids were able to escape out the emergency exit. What little coverage this ugly story has received in our media focuses mostly on the 13 year old kid. No surprise given the religion of the bus driver.

Kris Dray

Kris Dray • Mar 27, 2019 at 16:54

Sorry for the typos. I am also mildly grammatophobic and keyboardophobic. Let the grammar police deal with that as they will. Also, here in the frozen north, when the fire dies down, the keyboards stick.

Kate Smyth

Laura Rosen Cohen • Mar 27, 2019 at 19:53

Too funny! My favourite ever ZOG story will always be Asghar Bukhari "waiting for the other shoe to drop". I remember showing my father the actual video around the time (with no explanation beforehand, and YouTube link info not visible) and he could not stop laughing for about 2 hours.

https://www.steynonline.com/7007/tweet-of-clay
http://www.endofyourarm.com/2015/06/the-shoes-run-world-mossad-is-shoeish.html?m=1

Josh Passell

Laura Rosen Cohen • Mar 28, 2019 at 07:06

Nice try, Laura, but you can't fool me. ZOG (Zionist Occupied Government)? With the likes of Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib in Congress? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
Rhetorical questions follow, as I know your work, but if you'll permit me:
What kind of ZOG was it when Obama's electoral operatives in OneVoice/V15 were actively "colluding" to defeat Netanyahu in the 2015 Israeli election? (Called Darkenu now, they're at it again.) Was it a ZOG when Obama promised to put "daylight" between the US and Israel? When he did everything in his power to placate Iran and hobble Israel? When he termed Israeli any "settlement" as illegitimate? When he said as an aside to France's Sarkozy: "You're tired of him? What about me? I have to deal with him every day." Or when he called him "chickensh*t" in an interview, and made him leave one White House visit through the side door?
With "Zionists" like these, who needs Nazis?

Laura Rosen Cohen

Kris Dray • Mar 28, 2019 at 11:46

Kris I hope I haven't offended you. Did I goof up? Or maybe you're Jewish after all?!?! I use the word gentile to describe non-Jews, especially my philosemitic gentile besties (*waves to Mark Steyn and Kathy Shaidle*).

Laura Rosen Cohen

Kate Smyth • Mar 28, 2019 at 13:28

That still is pretty funny :)