Free Speech at Sea

The Mark Steyn Show
November 2, 2018

https://www.steynonline.com/8963/free-speech-at-sea

We're proud to present a brand new edition of The Mark Steyn Show. These programs, along with SteynPosts, Tales for Our Time, On the Town and much else at SteynOnline, are made possible through the support of members of The Mark Steyn Club from every corner of the earth, for which we are extremely grateful.

This edition of The Mark Steyn Show was recorded live at sea on the inaugural Mark Steyn Cruise with an audience from the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong and elsewhere. Mark talks free speech with three of his compatriots - author and blogger Kathy Shaidle, singer-songwriter Tal Bachman, and broadcaster and parliamentary candidate Andrew Lawton. They also take questions from Mark Steyn Club members on free-speech issues in North America, Europe and elsewhere. Click below to watch:

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As we said above, The Mark Steyn Show is made possible through the support of members of The Mark Steyn Club. We appreciate that membership is not for everyone, and we're proud to say that, thanks to the Steyn Club, this website now provides more free content than at any time in our fifteen-year history. But, if you're minded to join us, we'd love to have you. What is The Mark Steyn Club? Well, it's a discussion group of lively people on the great questions of our time (the latest will air this Tuesday). It's also an audio Book of the Month Club (we'll have another launching next Friday), and a video poetry circle (the latest poem airs a week on Sunday), and a live music club (see Tal getting his kicks on Route 66 here, and enjoy some more live Bobby Troup songs here). We don't (yet) have a clubhouse, but we do have other benefits. And, if you've got some kith or kin who might like the sound of all that and more, we do have a special limited-time Steyn Club Gift Membership. More details here.

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80 Reader Comments

Sandy Bottom of Boodjidup Beach • Mar 3, 2019 at 10:22

Brilliant suggestion by Kathy Shaidle at the 39+ minute point.

Separately: Censorship has a long history. Not long ago there was a lot of censorship in the USA in the music and movie industries. ie. those now doing the censorship were heavily censored. It produced a situation where innocent pop and R&R songs were censored and not so innocent songs were allowed because the censors didn't understand the words. The left, using the first amendment, pushed open the doors in the 80s and beyond. They seem to have forgotten their own history.

Rob Mort • Nov 9, 2018 at 05:31

Really enjoyed that thanks Mark and company..sorry couldn't be there.

Ellen Comeau • Nov 7, 2018 at 21:52

Cher Mark,

Greetings from your favourite female non-francophone francophone! ;-)

Thank you for this great panel! Loved every minute of it!

One small way people can push back against restrictions on free speech is by withholding donations to their alma maters. I'm a graduate of St. FX University in Antigonish, Nova Scotia. Upon receiving a request for a donation (they raise funds every year in the Fall), I checked the Campus Freedom Index (it's a rating of Canadian universities' policies and practices with regards to free speech, put together by the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms), and St. FX did not rate well on its policies (it received a better rating for its practices). So I decided that I would not donate to the university until this was rectified, and I let the university know. I have (finally) heard back from the university that they are looking into my concerns. Hopefully I will be able to start donating again soon.

Fran Lavery

Ellen Comeau • Nov 9, 2018 at 15:30

Are there any conservative colleges in Canada you could contribute to instead, Ellen? We have Georgetown U and George Washington U as our alma maters and we choose to make donations to Hillsdale College.

Ray Winchester • Nov 5, 2018 at 09:15

4 courageous people. You too Mark.

Ken • Nov 5, 2018 at 00:39

Very nice to hear mentioned Ezra Levant's on-camera stand against that Canadian "human rights" bureaucrat and her taxpayer-funded grift. He and Mark brought much of it crashing down. They're both true heroes.

Robert Fox

Ken • Nov 5, 2018 at 08:31

The Ezra Levant - Canadian "human rights" reference by Kathy did bring back memories of what a classic episode that is. If there are fans of Steyn who have not watched it, it's on YouTube. If she didn't work for tyrants, one might have felt sorry for that woman who didn't realize what she was in for.

Laura Rosen Cohen • Nov 4, 2018 at 21:25

This was GREAT. Still eating my pure little Zionist heart out that I couldn't be there but Inshallah, next round.

Can we get a panel on the sartorial arts of effete Canadian human rights activists? Asking for a friend.

Charles Romer • Nov 4, 2018 at 16:03

I found Kathy Shaidle's comments (about 39 minutes in) thought provoking; eye opening in fact.
They actually help me to keep my temper under control when watching news reports.

Kathy Shaidle

Charles Romer • Nov 4, 2018 at 17:50

Thanks so much, Charles. Happy to be of assistance :-)

Rob Mort

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 9, 2018 at 05:33

Lying on my sofa in Byron Bay deep in the heart of the green left ( they know where I live) watched and very much enjoyed that. Cheers morty

Robert Fox • Nov 4, 2018 at 11:46

Very much enjoyed the discussion on the state of free speech in the west. Interesting toward the end of the video when everyone said they were optimistic going forward after Lawton accurately described how the institutions are mostly liberal. We don't get to elect judges and bureaucrats. But they are the ones who directly affect our every day lives more than our elected officials do. Elections are important but unless we can restrain the institutions, voting accomplishes little.

Roger CJ • Nov 4, 2018 at 09:21

I watched the entirety of this Free Speech at Sea and found it fascinating. Good thing you were in International Waters, else you might have been rounded up and detained, pending Thought Correcton Therapy. It was against this backdrop of free expression that I went for a coffee and heard Sting's hit song about a creepy-stalking lover, "Every Breath You Take." Suddenly it occured to me that this song is the perfect anthem for the Progressively Lunatic Democrat party. It explains their (Dystopian) Utopian world view: "Every breath you take / Every move you make / I'll be watching you" (so you better do as I say) while handily explains their current (and future) dyspeptic rage when they lose an election: "Don't you see / You belong to me." Just as in Sting's original, what on the surface sounds like a sweet love song (Free Healthcare! Free College! Incusiveness!) becomes upon further inspecton the dark ramblings a creepy scorned lover, who i reduced to stalking, shaming and threatening the object of his desire. It's perfect for the Dems!

Mark replies:

You should hear my version of that song, Roger - cooked up after a jolly conversation with Sting in the BBC pub a zillion years back.

Steven Payne • Nov 4, 2018 at 03:22

One thing (among many) I found interesting in this is how "Bachman" is pronounced. Having only heard the name on the radio here during the BTO days, it was always pronounced with a broad A. Apparently though, it's pronounced with a short A, as in "back". Now I have to wonder if the classical guy, Bach, is really pronounced Back?
"Having spent quite a few years of my life wasted...." -- Kathy Shaidle
You and me both, Sister!

cottesloe dreaming • Nov 4, 2018 at 01:37

grand show Mark , to you and your guests . Such absurdities that now seem real? You ain't seen nothin' yet.

Reid Trummel • Nov 3, 2018 at 23:30

A delight to "meet" Kathy Shaidle via this video after enjoying her comments here in the online Club.

Chris Hall

Reid Trummel • Nov 4, 2018 at 12:59

She's also very nice in person, as is her husband "blazingcatfur". I highly recommend the cruise(s) and it's essential to stay up late and hit the designated bar (in this case the Crow's Nest), where you get a chance to say "hi".

Kathy Shaidle

Chris Hall • Nov 4, 2018 at 15:56

Thanks to you both! And I too recommend the cruise--I understand the next one is already in the works. My husband and I were honoured to be part of it.

Dan • Nov 3, 2018 at 20:17

Nice compilation Brian Beuhler. Ida Amin - well done.

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 18:39

And right one cue... the alleged synagogue vandal, James Polite.

According to Jake Tapper on Twitter:

"A year ago, Polite was profiled by NYT -- a foster care kid who interned for Democrat City Council Speaker @ChrisCQuinn 'working on initiatives to combat hate crime, sexual assault and domestic violence'" (...)

"He has been reportedly admitted to a hospital psychiatric ward for observation."

Laura Rosen Cohen

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 4, 2018 at 21:40

Draidle, this story is going to DISAPPEAR because BAD NARRATIVE.

Also, I wonder if the Pittsburgh murderer were not a white Christian, if the public outpouring of grief would have been so large and dramatic. Just thinking there have been Jews murdered by other religious people (not Amish) and there's never been as large a public mourning. Yes, this is the largest slaughter in America, but other incidents against Jews have also happened in America and there was no comparable public grief, soul-searching, etc.

David Dimick • Nov 3, 2018 at 14:21

One reason Trump is hated by the liberals is he is not afraid to speak the truth and to speak it freely. Norman Vincent Peale who wrote "The Power of Positive Thinking" was Donald Trump's familiy minister. The lesson to learn from positive thinking and speaking is that those who despise the truth will often devote their daily session of pure hate to you.(See Orwell's "1984" as he foresees the future of the fake media and its followers.) But as Jesus said, "The truth shall set you free." Indeed, is there anyone more captive of their own misery than the radical left?

Kate Smyth • Nov 3, 2018 at 14:15

On the flip side of Islamic demands to restrict speech in accordance with sharia "blasphemy" laws, it's surprising how many people (mainly Jews, as well as conservatives) insist that Holocaust denial be restricted.

Mark's explanation (in Canada's House of Commons) about such an egregious and counter-productive criminalisation of speech was distilled into less than 140 characters in Gad Saad's reply to a fellow on Twitter (by the name of... Imran Khan!) : "Hey moron. I am Jewish and I support the right of idiots to proclaim that the Holocaust was a hoax. There are no fissures in my positions because I am cognitively consistent. Free speech is free speech even when it hurts my feelings."

Brilliant. The easier it is for these bigoted, Holocaust-denying freaks to reveal themselves... the better!

Josh • Nov 3, 2018 at 14:15

Why did we conservatives not build our own Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc.? Because it never occurred to us that we had to. When Johannes Gutenberg invented the printing press, he didn't deny it to those on one side or other of the Hussite Wars (the Church would see to that); Peter Thiel requires no litmus test to use PayPal. We were fine being outnumbered: one five-foot woman with courage makes a majority. But to see our opinions not refuted but suppressed--disappeared--that we did not expect. Our bad, I suppose. Their worse.

George Pazin

Josh • Nov 3, 2018 at 18:32

Well said and observed, Josh.

Kathy Shaidle

Josh • Nov 3, 2018 at 18:41

It occurred to me, and I expected it :-) And actually people are having their PayPal's suspended. Alas I had the insight but not the money or clout to get alternatives built.

Marc Swerdloff • Nov 3, 2018 at 13:32

Serious and entertaining. Thank you Mark for your many talents and courage!

Brian Buehler • Nov 3, 2018 at 07:10

Few quotes on free speech for you aside from the basic Voltaire one. The last quote should be one none of us should want to hear from any of our leaders.

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."
― George Orwell

"If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
― George Washington

"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear."

[Special Message to the Congress on the Internal Security of the United States, August 8, 1950]"
― Harry S. Truman

"We forget that, although freedom of speech constitutes an important victory in the battle against old restraints, modern man is in a position where much of what "he" thinks and says are the things that everybody else thinks and says; that he has not acquired the ability to think originally - that is, for himself - which alone gives meaning to his claim that nobody can interfere with the expression of his thoughts."
― Erich Fromm, The Fear of Freedom

"Those who make conversations impossible, make escalation inevitable."
― Stefan Molyneux
"The framers of the constitution knew human nature as well as we do. They too had lived in dangerous days; they too knew the suffocating influence of orthodoxy and standardized thought. They weighed the compulsions for restrained speech and thought against the abuses of liberty. They chose liberty."

[Beauharnais v.Illinois, 342 U.S. 250, 287 (1952) (dissenting)]"
― William O. Douglas

"In order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive."
― Jordan B. Peterson

And the last one.

"There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech."
― Idi Amin

George Pazin

Brian Buehler • Nov 3, 2018 at 18:29

Thanks for those. I'm screenshotting your shared words so I can save them.

Kate Smyth

Brian Buehler • Nov 4, 2018 at 20:28

Excellent compilation, Brian. Thank you.

"This is slavery, not to speak one's thought." Euripides.

Brian Buehler • Nov 3, 2018 at 03:13

Social media when it first came out was a threat to mainstream media. Anyone with a blog could essentially do the job of a columnist or a journalist without the training. What they've done is centralized the arguments to where the media are the experts again and everyone else has to echo what they've said to have credibility. Social media is now a platform under the control of the liberal media. When a platform is given to those who aren't considered "experts" they view it as a threat to their own integrity as a source of information.

Brian Buehler • Nov 3, 2018 at 02:46

Kathy is right. The left has convinced these people that the anger, failure, and problems in their lives are the work of some grand conspiracy by someone, some race, some religion, some foreign country or some organization that is out to get you based on your identity. That all it is really. They all have internal issues that they don't want to address so they deflect to someone else. It turns people to various forms of addiction, depression, acts of violence, and even suicide. The left has taken advantage of their frustration by saying the reason why they're this way is because these people don't care about you and they want to see you suffer. When are we all going to ask people the question Kathy asked: "What happened to you?"

Kate Smyth • Nov 2, 2018 at 23:27

Four supremely intelligent, articulate, liberty-loving Canadians. Lawton-Shaidle-Bachman would be a very formidable force together in politics... c'mon guys!

The collective point that there are not-very-bright and often-unstable people running the show and advancing insane agendas is well taken. They assume the moral high-ground and curtail free speech and open debate by intimidation (including the unstated threat of the culture-of-snitching) and even violence. Normal people (a silent majority) are reduced to walking on eggs-shells, lest they set off another tantrum or suffer as a result of being undermined and marginalised.

Beyond public discourse, this has infiltrated all major institutions including those which should be avowedly apolitical. The societal mainstream is being manipulated, blackmailed, bullied and "de-platformed" by the personality-disordered far left; it is the crazies who should be de-normalised (to use Mark's term) instead of the other way around.

Have to rewatch this (again), as there are so many brilliant points made. Several thousands of views and heaps of likes already on YouTube, in just a few hours!

Kathy Shaidle

Kate Smyth • Nov 3, 2018 at 06:43

Well, Kate, you heard what happened when Andrew gave that route a try :-(

I think many of those "running the show" _are_ (relatively) sane and smart, but they have no qualms about building up their ranks with the cannon-fodder crazies: the lost souls you saw at Occupy Wall Street, and those I mentioned in Canadian anti-pipeline occupations.

The top level Left have education, jobs, daddy's money, families, connections, networks built up over a lifetime; but their shock troops tend to be far less (to use an oft-maligned word of their own) "privileged." If a campaign goes bad, the top level folks can just move on to the next thing, leaving the shock troops with the arrest records, untreated mental illness and loneliness.

Kate Smyth

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 12:47

You're right, Kathy— the cast of "the show" (as opposed to those actually running it) is stacked with the types of "dispensable" people you described (many of whom seem to be Borderline and Antisocial personality types)... versus the very smart, stable and well-funded directors.

Mark made the point in a National Post article (recently reposted) re "anti-bullying" programmes in schools: The left does not care one iota about anything other than advancing ideology, and conscripting (and discarding) useful victims as a means to that end.

PS. Yes, Andrew's wry observations (eg Elizabeth Warren being part-Gurkha) would preclude any involvement in Canadian politics. Sad!

Drew

Kate Smyth • Nov 9, 2018 at 11:55

"Normal people (a silent majority) are reduced to walking on egg shells..."

Sorry to say that what you call normals (presumably people ruled by evidence and logic instead of emotion easily swept into violence) are apparently NOT the majority any longer as proven by voting habits. We still have the ballot box allowing for a secret vote for the time being and 2/3 of Canadians and half of Americans keep voting LEFT despite its clearly fascist tendencies on view and escalating.

Leftist brainwashing through public mis-education and media propagandists has done its evil work and obtained a critical mass of useful idiots. The recent legalization encouraging Canadians to be potheads, passive lotus eaters will be the icing on the poisonous cake.

Babs • Nov 2, 2018 at 22:44

@ 1:35 says that not enough people will show up for a "free speech rally." Well, I think the TR rallys have proven you wrong.

Kathy Shaidle

Babs • Nov 3, 2018 at 06:47

However, Trump rallies are not presented as free speech rallies first and foremost. They are, for better or worse, personality driven; millions more people will pay big bucks to watch the real Bruce Springsteen perform than even the most accomplished (even superior!) Bruce Springsteen tribute band...

And they are really not free speech rallies so much as rallies celebrating patriotism, which is a far more concrete and appealing concept.

Trump's rallies are in fact a unique combination of a coach's "get out their and win" pre-game speech -- if that coach happens to be Vince Lombardi or his equivalent-- AND a POST-game victory parade. Not a combination that you see every day, hence another explanation of their unique appeal.

Babs

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 10:04

I was referring to the Tommy Robinson rallies which I think are free speech rallies. Not so much Trump which is almost a cult of personality rally.
I have been rather enthused by the TR rallies where people feel so strongly about what is happening in the UK take the time to assemble in the thousands to protest the strangle of free speech.

Kathy Shaidle

Babs • Nov 3, 2018 at 10:53

Ah I didn't catch that. Yes, that is true, those rallies are amazing. Again however a lot of that is because people are drawn to Tommy as a person. I realize that what he stands for is all wrapped up in that, however, just a generic free speech rally without such a charismatic person at the centre might not be as huge.

Babs • Nov 2, 2018 at 21:58

@ 28 minutes Kathy and Tal make an interesting point. That is that our 1st amendment has actually been degraded. I never really thought of it this way but, they are right.
Another thought is how Canadians are so very concerned by what goes on in the US. I understand that we are a great big country just to their south but, their understanding of the US seems somewhat odd. By that I mean that they seem to have a better grasp of American political theory than most of us do.
When looked at with the recent trade negotiations......

Sol

Babs • Nov 2, 2018 at 22:35

I think the average American's grasp of political theory is, We're free. Leave me alone.

Kathy Shaidle

Sol • Nov 3, 2018 at 06:37

But Sol, I'll never forget Mark's anecdote about the fellow letting himself be mauled as part of "airport security theatre"... while wearing a DON'T TREAD ON ME t-shirt... :-)

Sol

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 12:32

That's right. The rubber meets the road later.

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 2, 2018 at 19:08

PS: Those "You Aren't Smart Enough To Tell Me How to Live" t-shirts are available at HollywoodLoser.com

Babs from Cali

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 03:51

I'll have to get one of your shirts. Love the slogan.

You're so right, Kathy, that group response is needed; one person should not have to stand alone to fight back against the attacks against free speech or any other of our rights. When I was a senior in high school in the early '60s, one of our teachers loved to spring periodic multiple choice quizzes on us. The problem was not the surprise testing, but that he deliberately wrote the questions and multiple answers to choose from in ways that could easily be interpreted more than one way, so that it was impossible for any of us to know how to answer the questions. To make matters worse, he would merely grade us low without any explanations or discussion. So we banned together and agreed on the next test to mark our answers Yes, then No, then Yes, then No and so forth, regardless of what the questions were. This way the entire class would collectively get the same grade. It was essential, however, that every student cooperate; none of us knew for sure if everyone would, so it was still risky. Thankfully everyone did as we agreed. The teacher said nothing to us about it; but it was the last test he gave us all year. So group action is very powerful when both justified and executed correctly. Not bad for 12th graders.

I've recently engaged in some back and forth on Facebook and YouTube with rude people making snide and unfair comments and criticisms about others. In a few incidents, the opposition made faulty or silly arguments, and when they couldn't intellectually or logically defend them, they always resorted to nasty name calling, sometimes pretty severe: racist, bitch, cunt and such. My first thoughts were to defend myself, but I knew I would look foolish and desperate if I did; I also knew it would be for naught. Instead I decided to take the wind out of their sails and agree with them wholeheartedly. I knew I was none of the things they accused me of being, so I doubled down and totally agreed with them. In each case, they folded and immediately disappeared into internet space.

If conservatives stopped dropping to their knees and apologizing for every little comment, if they owned up to everything they said after clarifying anything needing clarification, they could walk away with dignity and honor and power, regardless of the outcome. If you are going to get fired no matter what you say after a firestorm erupts, then don't dishonor yourself by issuing a teary-eyed apology; stand by your comments. It's stupid to apologize, then get fired anyway from a job you were going to lose no matter what. Not only do you lose the battle straight away, but you embolden the opposition to strike again and you make it harder for anyone to take your place. My strongest moments have come when I have agreed with the name calling they expected me to defend against, and did so in a facetiously powerful way. Moral: No apologies. My humble opinion.

Fran Lavery

Babs from Cali • Nov 3, 2018 at 12:17

The one problem I see with speaking up at the job is potentially losing your job and maybe not being able to land another one, especially in a small town. The numbers aren't there. The tactics the Left uses strikes right where one is most vulnerable.

I have a fellow who services our house maintenance. He's a very conservative Hispanic man. He heard Rush on the radio the day and we started a conversation about politics. I asked him if he knows why most Hispanics in our area seem to be dyed-in-the-wool Democrat supporters. He thinks it's fear. He himself won't let on to others he always votes Republican because of the fear of losing his customers once word gets out. He also told me that a lot of Mexican-Americans are from Spanish ancestors and feel themselves a cut above the other Mexican Americans who have no Spanish bloodlines. He himself would not classify himself as Latino but as Spanish descent even though his folks a couple generations ago lived in Mexico. Every culture has its own little race contentions and assumed heirarchies we probably never hear about. It's only white Americans who can be racists and bigots, after all. I wonder if there's not a little racism happening with the flood of Central Americans coming through Mexico. I don't hear anything about Mexico rolling out their carpet and allowing them to get in line for asylum. Why? With all the murders happening because of the drug cartels, you might logically think Mexico could use some replacements of their own. No, Mexico looks after Mexico, corrupt as it is.

Fran Lavery

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 12:34

I thought it was "you're too stupid to tell me how to think." Anyway, that's the line I use when confronted by Progressives. Okay, I think it to myself and don't actually say it. But it's a beauty, alright.

And I love your black humor, especially how in your teens "nuclear war was your retirement plan." That seemed to be the undercurrent of my MO without articulating it and probably nails it for more than a few of us with preteens and teens in the nuclear war scare period. That's probably what gave rise to the sixties era of free love and kumbaya and singing along with, "all we are saying, is give peace a chance."

Still with that nuclear bomb hanging over our heads why the worry about the Earth turning into a big ice cube or furnace? (I never caught the Earth Day wave. Do you want to live in a pig pen or not? Did we need a national or global event to tell us that?) Something was going to get us before any of that happened. Things started to turn in the psyche of the American people back then, especially if one was just heading into adulthood. I should've made a better plan for my future but looking around at the landscape was it that strange to think "what's the point in planning ahead"?

With that as a framework for living what motivates one to survive and keep plugging along? Is history repeating itself? Is this why there are so many drug ODs?

Babs from Cali

Fran Lavery • Nov 3, 2018 at 16:32

My point was that (and I should have stated it this way) if you get into trouble for a comment, get your employer to first guarantee you'll keep your job in writing before you apologize. If you've lost the job no matter what you do, why apologize? Meghan Kelly got fired for asking a question, but they were looking for a way to get rid of her anyway. I would have more respect for her if she had owned it, explained it and stood up against the haters and the network. But then I don't know why she went to work for them in the first place.

As for your maintenance man, yes, every culture has it's own class system and biases. It's human nature. I grew up in Japan and class is very important there. Young people travel long distances to go to the "right" school but not the closest one. and suicides are prevalent if one does not get into the "right" school. It's one of the reasons trains are unbearable during rush hour. You're supposed to marry in your class as opposed to marrying within your race, as it is here. If you fail at work, you quit because you have lost "face". It's the samurai code of the non-samurai. I wish Obama and Hillary had a samurai code; then they'd know to shut up and disappear from public view.

Fran Lavery

Babs from Cali • Nov 3, 2018 at 17:58

I do think if you're in the news/journalism business that sounds like a good idea. Other areas, say self-employed, or in a position that is easily replaceable, I'm not so sure. Any chance you've heard the podcast between Os Guiness and The Federalist Staff. It's about how America is at its Rubicon and there are two versions of freedom. It's quite interesting. I think it ties neatly into Mark's "Free Speech at Sea" show. He mentions something about the late sixties being a big turning point. Kathy's remarks, and some of Tal's also about the people in the music culture that seem bi-polar, got me recalling the sixties and I felt it marked a turning point in our nation's political trajectory but couldn't explain how that turning point occurred. If you have a chance it's up today at The Federalist at the Hillsdale College DC location. Curious what you take from it. (We have a nephew who married a Japanese lady and they live and work there in Tokyo. The children are educated in an American school, but know and speak Japanese. I'm sure you're correct about Japanese customs but I also think younger generations have their own new ideas that are ever so gently separating from the older generations; but that's just a personal observation from a one time visit to see them).

Roy A Crocker

Fran Lavery • Nov 3, 2018 at 20:24

You reveal a very troubling and deep truth here concerning just how much free speech has been eroded in 2018 America. These despicable tactics of the left you describe do indeed work, especially in the workplace. Muslim activists have also largely succeeded in silencing any criticism of Islam or what is actually in the qua'an. Even Fox News has caved. Europe is moving to codify by law any insult of Mohammed or Islam in general. Only Islam qualifies for this protection. This has barely raised a peep of protest which tells us where Europe is heading. No need for a law here in America - Islamophobia has largely succeeded in virtually eliminating any critical discussion of Islam in our main stream media or in academia.

Fran Lavery

Roy A Crocker • Nov 3, 2018 at 22:14

I know from your past comments, Roy, you don't need any more depressing info and you don't need any more "waking up" but as I was suggesting this Os Guinness podcast to Babs from Cali, I suggest it also to you to have a listen. It really helped me see a kind of big four-decade backdrop to all the things Mark Steyn has been telling us. Mark has his thumb on the tyranny that's about to envelope us through the global events presently happening, made visible by the diminishment of our freedoms and steady destruction of Western Civilization. This author, Os Guinness, shows how the elapsed time since the sixties gave us what we have to deal with today.

Although, he fails to mention anything about the Culture of Islam's steady encroachment into our Western cultures, in my mind, Os seemed to me to be explaining how we're watching a rotting of the hull of our Constitutions and courts occurring due to our negligence in allowing Progressives to arrogate control of our education system and the attrition of faithful citizens to belief in a Bible originating Almighty. Man has objectified himself and disassociated himself with that higher plane of Being and coupled with the speedy advances of technology, we're at a place where we lost our sense of role and purpose in the world. This I think accounts for all the addictions and suicides. Family used to be the glue to hold us together in tough times but the family has been replaced by an "All-caring" government.

The massive stream of unknown illegals coming up from the south tells us that we have lost the argument for a nation of laws derived from Natural Rights and we're handing it over to aliens who have a different view of what tomorrow's America will look like. Where it ends, nobody really wants to go there. But we do know where it ends. Don't we? Just look at that gubernatorial candidate in Georgia, and the one in Florida, Curtains for those two states if those two Democrats take the prize, not to mention my home state of New Mexico. The rest will fall like dominoes.

Kate Smyth

Roy A Crocker • Nov 4, 2018 at 20:26

That's so true, Roy. Robert Spencer, as a serious and informed scholar in the field, is one of the few people who directly tackles the ideology head-on. I've seen him on-stage, and (like his writing) he presents information in a very easily-comprehensible and compelling way. I remember reading a wonderful reader comment somewhere once, to the effect that Robert (who had been quite self-deprecating about being "height-challenged", as evidenced in a photo of him alongside the exceptionally tall Geert Wilders) is a giant, whatever his physical attributes. Which is true!

Roy A Crocker

Kate Smyth • Nov 7, 2018 at 13:48

Sorry for the late reply Kate - I lost the internet for 3 days. I very much share your respect for Robert Spencer and have closely followed this brave man for many years along with Pam Geller, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and especially Bat Ye'or whose great book "Europe, Globalization, and the coming Universal Caliphate" lays out in precise detail just why and how the EU sold out it's collective soul along with it's long term future to Islam. Until a few years ago the first three were frequent guests on Fox News prime time. Not any more. Worse still, no one seems to have noticed. You struck a nerve with me in an earlier entry concerning Holocaust denial laws. Not only are they an abridgment of free speech but they are obviously counter productive as Muslim activists turn these laws to their advantage claiming they indirectly prove that the Holocaust either never happened or was greatly exaggerated. The truth will always shine in the light of day. I know we had a dust-up earlier but I greatly respect your opinions on any subject and I always read your entries along with Fran Lavery and several others if time permits. Thanks for mentioning Mr. Spencer whose web site is constantly under attack from left wing activists and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Kate Smyth

Roy A Crocker • Nov 7, 2018 at 15:23

Thanks for your reply, Roy. Likewise, I very much appreciate your comments, not to mention Mark's near-lone voice on free speech and Islam, and the opportunity for us to discuss these issues here.

Will send a longer reply re your points above when I get the chance.

Laura Rosen Cohen

Roy A Crocker • Nov 7, 2018 at 16:08

Roy, a majority of Jews felt that laws against Holocaust denial could never be turned against them-so incredibly stupid and short-sighted. Interestingly, a lot of fans of Holocaust denial simultaneously wish a second Holocaust upon the Jews. The one that never happened or something. Go figure. They want it both ways...

Kate Smyth

Roy A Crocker • Nov 8, 2018 at 11:19

The shift away from analysis of Islamic ideology on Fox by the likes of Spencer/ Geller/ Hirsi Ali is very disquieting (I've only been made aware of it via your comments). It's proof of just how insidious the ideological "creep" is, even in the US (of all places).

This reinforces your point about the First Amendment being relegated to an abstract right with the advance of "Islamophobia" as a means to chill free speech. Mark and Tal made the same general point (from around 28 min): that "... words on a piece of paper... versus what's happening on the ground" (Tal), in effect means that "... it's the disposition of a people that determines whether you have a climate of free speech" (Mark). This is an absolutely key point, yet not infrequently in the comments here, quite a few of your fellow Americans seem to be (falsely) reassured by their First Amendment rights. And all the while, coerced self-censorship seeps through remorselessly.

The recent EHRC proclamation (re paedophile prophets) is entirely consistent with the fact that Europeans have submitted to Islamisation. It is interesting to note (eg. on the cruise) the lack of continental Europeans amongst Mark's many followers; they've well and truly given up on this stuff (assuming it ever really mattered to them), and it's the Anglosphere (minus most of the original Anglo's, actually) left holding the fort.

PS. Thank you for your forbearance under attack in the previous comment thread; my intention was to be general (not personal... the views on both sides being widely held) but it didn't come out that way at all! So apologies for appearing to single you out in such an abrasive manner. As a fellow MSC (pro-choice) cruiser mentioned (and I wholeheartedly concur): whatever we might agree or disagree on otherwise, the free speech issue is of absolutely critical importance, as it underpins all the rest.

Kate Smyth

Laura Rosen Cohen • Nov 8, 2018 at 11:23

Exactly: those who deny the first want to bring on the next. Which is why these people must be able to voice their hideous views completely unfettered, in terms of both the historical rewriting and future plans (especially while the Holocaust is still in living memory).

Roy A Crocker

Laura Rosen Cohen • Nov 8, 2018 at 15:54

So true Laura - Kate wonders why so many on the right who claim to support freedom of speech have signed on to this law, so do I. While I realize the intentions were honorable for the most part, it was "incredibly stupid and short sighted" as you put it. Your latter point speaks to the Iranian Mullahs and other Muslim leaders in the middle east. They have promised to destroy Israel in the end and I have no doubt they mean it. Very sharp point Laura and it's also interesting that none of this bothered Barak Obama or John Kerry in the least, nor was it of any concern in the MSM either.

Laura Rosen Cohen

Roy A Crocker • Nov 8, 2018 at 16:32

The honourable intentions part is because it is conservatives and the political right that know that antisemitism never bodes well for any society. They know history (they read books...). They are upset because they feel the evil of what it does in their bones, they see it in the political left and their Jew-hating fellow travelers and they want to do "something", but unfortunately this "something" is as I said, short-sighted. Israel (i.e the Jews) are the foundational building block of Western civilization. Or should I say just civilization? So of course Barack Obama and John Kerry and the MSM were passionately anti-Israel, pro-Mullah, etc.

Roy A Crocker

Kate Smyth • Nov 8, 2018 at 17:20

Hey, we're good here Kate and I fully understand the passion on the pro-life side. No offense was taken on my part. Insidious is the perfect description for this ideological creep slowing overtaking America and Europe. Many, even some on the right seem to totally misconstrue the meaning of the first amendment. As many constitutional scholars have correctly pointed out the first amendment only applies to the congress abridging - by law - freedom of speech. Take 30 seconds and google it, the meaning could not be clearer. In any event this isn't where the actual threat to conservative speech originates in America and so offers no protection as conservative thought has largely been driven out of academia and the mainstream media except for Fox News. Codifying 'hate speech' into law, as the left is so keen on doing, would at least to my mind be a clear violation of this sacred amendment, not that this would be of any concern to most leftists. The irony here with Holocaust denial laws as you pointed out should be obvious and troubling. Although not banned by law here, in a defacto sense it has been effectively outlawed. I'd prefer that these ignorant Jew haters be allowed to show their true colors for all to see.

Rob Mort

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 9, 2018 at 05:44

Well as I was saying, I live deep in the heart of left green Territory, trump haters n all that (the Byron Shire look it up) and I have a virtual monopoly in the slashing and clearing business Coz I'm the only one stupid enough to do it. There's a LOT of money here ( of course trust fund babies) and you oughta see the look on some their faces when I step out of my machine to slash there lush green pastures and if I'm feeling mischievous I simply open my gob, and they jaws drop and they know they gotta get me back but if they really shit me I just don't. Isn't that just wrong?!

Drew

Fran Lavery • Nov 9, 2018 at 12:05

A fascinating and rarely discussed bigotry is intra-race racism or colorism. In both brown skinned East Indians and among American blacks, the lighter the skin color, the more highly prized while those with the darkest skin hues are often shunned unless they have some outstanding talent. Look at successful wealthy black men, mostly sports figures. No matter what shade their own skin, they tend to choose lighter-skinned brides, all the way through to white. Meanwhile in India, lightening skin color is a big industry. Yet if a white expressed preference for light skin over dark, all Hades breaks loose.

Drew

Babs from Cali • Nov 9, 2018 at 12:07

Obama and Hillary plant their samurai sword in their winning opponent's back, lacking all sense of honor.

Kate Smyth

Roy A Crocker • Nov 9, 2018 at 12:22

"I'd prefer that these ignorant Jew haters be allowed to show their true colors for all to see." Yes, I encourage rabid anti-Semites to speak openly. And, as a rabid "Islamophobe", I should be free to point out their Jew-hatred. But very few people seem to get that.

PS. Authorities are working round-the-clock to find a motive as to why a known-wolf "Somali-Australian" went full Allahu Akbar in central Melbourne (just ahead of the opening of the Christmas window display in one of the major department stores, as luck would have it). Apparently this tragedy could've been averted... if only there'd been more bollards.

Kate Smyth

Rob Mort • Nov 9, 2018 at 12:23

Lol

Fran Lavery

Drew • Nov 9, 2018 at 18:33

Golly, I must live a sheltered life. I never heard this. Well, the barrel has taken a full turn as it now seems it's very whites (males) who are mostly at the bottom of the barrel. What was up is now down, what was down is now up. It's all very unimportant to me about pigment, unless I want to paint a portrait then I must mix the colors just right. That's the beginning and end of pigment concerns for me.

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 2, 2018 at 18:48

I already know I look like Hillary Clinton, so... :-)

David Watson

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 00:17

If Hiliary looked like you, she might have won.

Babs from Cali

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 01:52

Unlike Hillary, Kathy you look beautiful. You're also someone with knowledge, wisdom, sensibility and an ability to speak well, skills Hillary can only dream about. Thank you for your contribution to the free speech effort and for your courage. We are honored to have you commenting here with the rest of us.

Kathy Shaidle

Babs from Cali • Nov 3, 2018 at 09:43

You are all very kind, thanks so much :-)

Robert Orr

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 10:25

Seconding all the comments above, Kathy. I do miss FFoF, though.

Meanwhile, regarding resemblances to politicians, has anyone noticed that the woman minister at the Pittsburgh demonstration recalls Elizabeth May? I did see a rumour she was thinking of studying for the priesthood because of the pension scheme once .... Hmmm,m

Kathy Shaidle

Robert Orr • Nov 3, 2018 at 10:53

Yes I noticed that too!

Owen Morgan • Nov 2, 2018 at 18:41

I see the now wholly inaptly named European Court of Human Rights has effectively endorsed islamic law on blasphemy, ruling that criticism of the prophet Mohammed is incompatible with free speech. I am not sure, even in this age of activist judges, that the ECHR really has any power to invent new laws (or enforce fourteen-hundred year-old Bedouin ones), but the decision certainly represents the invertebrate tendency in Europe's self-appointed élite.

Not to be outdone, police in Ottawa have charged a man, a merely eighty-three year-old Catholic priest, with infringing a law banning protest against abortion in the vicinity of abortion clinics. Only problem: he was demonstrating unambiguously in favour of free speech and had no material relating to abortion. So they arrested him for another "crime", altogether.

Meanwhile, a female Presbyterian pastor ("pastrix"?) was able to harangue the US President in Pittsburgh, during a frankly vile demonstration of bigotry and hypocrisy. She ought to be entitled to spout her nonsense, but does anyone believe she tolerates anyone else's free speech?

Kate Smyth

Owen Morgan • Nov 2, 2018 at 23:38

Re the prophet (pbuh) and our observance of "blasphemy": This is not helped by the head of the major Christian denomination in the West saying that it is NORMAL to murder people who draw pictures. I realise I've been a bore in the comments about this, but why was Pope Francis not forced to resign for saying that the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists had it (ie. murder) coming to them, because "you cannot insult the faith of others"— or else. Anyone? It's genuinely morally reprehensible to justify murder (whether religiously-inspired or otherwise), and absolutely beggars belief that he did so. In contrast, kudos to Julie Bishop, a true free speech hero when it mattered most. (Shame about her subsequent disloyalty as deputy; her elevation to UN/ parliamentary party-gal; and her playing of the workplace gender card. I won't go on.) Loved her "Canadian Braveheart" speech!
https://www.steynonline.com/7477/our-canadian-braveheart

Kathy Shaidle

Kate Smyth • Nov 3, 2018 at 06:49

More proof that we should never put our trust in politicians 100%, and why we have to address not only the matter of elected leadership but of the unelected bureaucrats who really run everything.

Fran Lavery

Kate Smyth • Nov 3, 2018 at 11:00

Pope Francis should resign, and I vaguely remember hearing that the College of American Bishops and Archbishops were getting behind that (covered by one of the investigative journalists over at The Federalist last spring) but I haven't heard anything since.

Owen Morgan

Kathy Shaidle • Nov 3, 2018 at 12:46

Yes, the bureaucrats are like limpets. I can't post the link, but Guido Fawkes just had an article about two senior British civil servants who got moved sideways, at worst, after what was incompetence, to put it kindly - and possibly something even more serious.

Also in Britain, Theresa May has notoriously subcontracted her thought processes to an anti-Brexit bureaucrat over Brexit. I'm not sure I'm allowed to name him on Mark Steyn's site, so I shall just call him Olly Rasputin.

Kate Smyth

Fran Lavery • Nov 3, 2018 at 12:50

Over the Charlie Hebdo comments in January 2015? Sadly not; no such criticism at all from within the Church, despite the fact that he used the same words as a typical fire-breathing imam inciting jihadists to murder, but with a happy face and a few jokes thrown in.

Fran Lavery

Kate Smyth • Nov 3, 2018 at 13:38

No, not over that, over releasing a clergy figure in Chicago from his restricted clergyman duties imposed by a prior disciplinary action having to do with abuses. Sure it would be good to hear more outcry over these other terrible remarks. Anything to get Pope Francis out of his leadership role would help. The Catholic Church doesn't need someone who lost their marbles leading the flock.